# Athens to experience 50°C during the summer/ Greek Ministry of Climate Change



## mesogeiakos (12 Abr 2011 às 13:50)

I think this needs a topic of its own.Worthwhile debate on Climate Change with Athens being central as usual when it comes to extreme summer heat.


According to the Greek Ministry of Environment, Energy and Climate Change, Athens could experience huge problems from the climate change in the Med.The Ministry says that Athens might even experience 50°C in the coming years due to its susceptibility to extreme heat and the ongoing climatic changes in the wider area.A very interesting read indeed. 

Let me remind you that Athens holds the European temperature record according to the WMO with 48°C 


Here is the article of the newspaper TO PROTO THEMA (google translated) 



http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&l... 



> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Devastating consequences of overconsumption of water, reducing rainfall and extreme weather caused the Mediterranean worsening climate change and the increasingly frequent droughts in sub-Saharan Africa is expected to lead to increased illegal immigration.
> 
> The temperature in Athens can climb to 50 degrees in a few years, sea levels will rise by one meter and the impact on farming and tourism are irreversible, said Dimitris Lalas representative of our country's climate and Director of Environment Minister Tina Birbili.
> ...


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## mesogeiakos (12 Abr 2011 às 13:52)

And also here one more relevant article

http://www.deltiokairou.gr/news/50-vathmoi-kelsioy-se-liga-xronia-sthn-athhna.831131.html


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## stormy (12 Abr 2011 às 14:53)

I think that in some Greek basins it´s possible to reach 48º-49º....but since those basins are close to the sea they´re more susceptible of having very warm humid nights that joined with the warm days ( 35º) can cause high disconfort.

In my opinion the warmest areas of Greece are way too much influenced by the Mediterranean Marine boundary layer, that keeps those places from reaching values above 42º degrees consistently.

In the Iberian peninsula the low level plains of S Portugal and central/SW Spain are more likely of getting 50º because they are not influenced by the sea and there are greater chances of having fohen and compressive/advectional warming as the air travels westward loosing moisture and heating as compressed due to the lowering altitude and high solar radiance..
In SE Spain the fohen as well as the mechanisms i explained ar joined to cause even further warming ( NW flow required in this situation).

Let´s say Greek´s biggest deal are the steadiness of high mean daily values, in the other hand Iberia may have to deal with extreme but maybe not as durable heat waves... specially notorious on the max temp records.


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## mesogeiakos (12 Abr 2011 às 15:03)

stormy disse:


> I think that in some Greek basins it´s possible to reach 48º-49º....but since those basins are close to the sea they´re more susceptible of having very warm humid nights that joined with the warm days ( 35º) can cause high disconfort.
> 
> .



Well for Athens this is not the case exactly.In terms of humidity  initially it has to be mentioned that Hellenikon in the coast of Athens is actually the driest and least humid station in Greece.

Why is this?Apparently bsc of the extremely complex geomorphology of Athens.The mountains of Athens shelter the area very well and the Pindus range far north makes eastern Greece much drier compared to the rest of the country.If anything the coastal areas of Athens are famous for their lack of humidity and even semi-aridity.

If you use the Koppen formulas for Hellenikon then you can see that coastal Athens has a BSh (semi-arid) climate.

In terms of the extremes temperatures again this is not the case so much for Athens.The Athens basin is susceptible to the Foen winds and Elefsina is a prime example of this.

My understanding is that Athens due to its extremely complex geomorphology is one of the first if not the first candidate in Europe to register 50C in the summer and I think in one way this is what the Ministry of Climate Change is also saying about Athens.

Also the studies of the National Observatory of Athens show that Athens within the next few decades might actually reach to the point of having *mean max July temps of up to 41C* and this is also supported by the London School of Future Studies.


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## mesogeiakos (13 Abr 2011 às 20:06)

Check this out as well

http://www.e-erevna.gr/portal/story.aspx?ID=32606


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## belem (13 Abr 2011 às 20:13)

Quite extreme opinions, I would say...
41ºc of July maximum average, for example, is quite optimistic...
Even on the last year, with a summer well above average in Athens, you didn´t got anything close to that.


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## mesogeiakos (13 Abr 2011 às 20:19)

belem disse:


> Quite extreme opinions, I would say...
> 41ºc of July maximum average, for example, is quite optimistic...
> Even on the last year, with a summer well above average in Athens, you didn´t got anything close to that.




pessimistic you mean....

 the summer (and particularly August)   last year was above average only in terms of means not extreme maxes.In terms of extreme maxes we had 48C in 1977 in Elefsina and Tatoi and 47.5C in N.Filadelfia automatic HNMS station in 2007 beating the relevant Spanish and Portuguese national records and at the same time the 3 top temps officially in the European continent.

*Also an unofficial 49.2C and 48.5C in Zografou in eastern Athens in June 2007


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## mesogeiakos (13 Abr 2011 às 20:48)

I also see that this news coming from the Greek Ministry has gone through to Greece's largest news blog check it out here as well

http://tro-ma-ktiko.blogspot.com/2011/04/50_11.html


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## belem (13 Abr 2011 às 20:56)

Let´s be more precise, I wasn´t talking about extreme records but about july maximum *means* or *average*.
Like it´s exposed on the news.


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## mesogeiakos (13 Abr 2011 às 21:02)

belem disse:


> Lets be more precise, I wasn´t talking about extreme records but about july maximum *means*.



were u refering to a july mean maximum record though?I would have no clue honestly since HNMS does not publish this kind of stats.

I know that in 2007 Thiseio (which is traditionally weaker than N.Filadelfia in mean maxes) had a 36.5C.Last August 36.2C also August 2003 (or 2006 dont remember) 36.1C and two more July's which i forget the exact years over 36C the past decade or so.

 Here are a few for N.Filadelfia from an independent source for 1986-2002



> Αντίθετα από το 1986 μέχρι το 2002 είχαμε μέσες μέγιστες θερμοκρασίες υψηλότερες εκτός από τα έτη 1989, 1991, 1992 που ήταν χαμηλότερες. Χαρακτηριστικότερες όλων αυτών του 1988 (36,2) του 1998 (36,0) και του 2002 (36,6).



Generally a tendency of registering mean maxes over 36C the past 20 years or so in Athens.That is how I think the National Observatory of Athens provided their estimates in their research.


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## belem (13 Abr 2011 às 21:09)

mesogeiakos disse:


> were u refering to a july mean maximum record though?I would have no clue honestly since HNMS does not publish this kind of stats.
> 
> I know that in 2007 Thiseio (which is traditionally weaker than N.Filadelfia in mean maxes) had a 36.5C.Last August 36.2C also August 2003 (or 2006 dont remember) 36.1C and two more July's which i forget the exact years..



I was refering about a climatic average....
Anyway, that can be applied even for a record year, yes.
Thanks anyway for your sources.
Quite informative.


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## mesogeiakos (13 Abr 2011 às 21:15)

belem disse:


> I was refering about a climatic average....
> Anyway, that can be applied even for a record year, yes.
> Thanks anyway for your sources.
> Quite informative.



oh the climatic average!Ok!

I have one from an independent source of 33.6C for N.Filadelfia as the highest in the Athens basin for 50 years (doesnt specify which years).

here you go



> Από μετρήσεις της θερμοκρασίας , επί 50 χρόνια, στον μετεωρολογικό σταθμό της Ν. Φιλαδέλφειας προκύπτει μέση μέγιστη θερμοκρασία Ιουλίου, για την περιοχή, *33,6 βαθμούς κελσίου*. Η τιμή αυτή, απλώς ενδεικτική ώς κλιματολογικό στοιχείο , μπορεί να θεωρηθεί μέτρο σύγκρισης για το πόσο ζεστός ήταν ο μήνας ενός συγκεκριμένου έτους ή μίας περιόδου


.

The HNMS site is pretty much the same giving 33.5 for N.Filadelfia from 1955 to 1997.But no data for last 13 years.

I would assume that the climatic average for the N.Filadelfia station for 1981-2010 timeseries would have to be really close to 35C or above.


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## stormy (13 Abr 2011 às 21:30)

mesogeiakos disse:


> oh the climatic average!Ok!
> 
> I have one from an independent source of 33.6C for N.Filadelfia as the highest in the Athens basin for 50 years (doesnt specify which years).
> 
> ...




Only 33-35º? 
I thought those stations would have 35 and plus...
Here in IB peninsula we have a wide area in wich we have 35 and plus 71-00 mean max...and some incredible data of AEMET reaching 39.2º in Fuentes del Madroño ( i think it´s the name..) in jully...although we can consider 37º as the upper limit on wich we have a  statisticaly apreciable piece of land  reaching those values.

The record mean max in Pt is Amareleja with 38º in aug 2010...in spain ( AEMET main stations) i think is around 38.5º


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## mesogeiakos (13 Abr 2011 às 21:37)

stormy disse:


> Only 33-35º?
> I thought those stations would have 35 and plus...
> Here in IB peninsula we have a wide area in wich we have 35 and plus 71-00 mean max...and some incredible data of AEMET reaching 39.2º in Fuentes del Madroño ( i think it´s the name..) in jully...although we can consider 37º as the upper limit on wich we have a  statisticaly apreciable piece of land  reaching those values.
> 
> The record mean max in Pt is Amareleja with 38º in aug 2010...in spain ( AEMET main stations) i think is around 38.5º



33-35C by the sea in Iberia?Highly unlikely i think.This is only found in  Greece and maybe Italy.But it is obvious you will have over 35C  since there is a huge landmass in Iberia.

At the same time though the characteristic of Athens is that next to the sea it can have these *extreme temps.*For example if you see the frequency of extreme temps of over 45C in Elefsina which is next to the sea you will be surprised.I think that even Cordoba has managed less than 9 times the last 35 years to reach 45C



> 19/7/1973 46.0C
> 10/7/1977 48.0C (European temp record)
> 23/7/1987 45.0C
> 27/7/1987 45.2C
> ...


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## mesogeiakos (14 Abr 2011 às 02:19)

Just a correction,the temperature in Elefsina on 19/7/1973 was actually 46.4C according to HNMS,so the proper list is









http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_ell_2_08/08/2010_410839

Here you go again


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## mesogeiakos (15 Abr 2011 às 15:23)

Belem just for info, I have found below the mean max for July for the National Observatory of Athens station situated at the hill of Nymphs next to the Acropolis.Unfortunately the N.O.A has data for monthly mean maxes per station only after 2001.So the mean max for the decade 2001-2010 works out at about 35.1C and the mean min at about 24.9C with a mean for July at *30.0C* exactly!!

Bear in mind that Nea Filadelfia is traditionally warmer than any area of Athens in summer maxes so I believe for the past decade at least the mean max of Nea Filadelfia for July should be very close to 36.0C.Also Nea Filadelfeia is the only area in Athens to be so far off the sea. 13.2km distance from the South, 14.7km from the West, 21.2 km from the East and 32.4km from the North blocked by all directions from mountains and at the same time at a relatively low altitude of 136m.Thus the suburb of Nea Filadelfia is literally the ''gold'' spot of Athens for extreme high mean maxes in July.

The residents of Nea Filadelfia are accustomed to this heat and each year Nea Filadelfia is on the news in Greece about its extreme temps.Generally the ''Filadelfiotes'' (residents of Nea Filadelfia in Greek) have a name of being resilient to this temps and off course there are some nasty jokes in Greece about the summer heat of the area 

Here all the data 

National Observatory of Athens station 
WMO ID 16714

July 2001 =36.1C







July 2002=35.2C






July 2003=35.2C






July 2004=34.8C






July 2005=35.1C






July 2006=33.4C






July 2007=36.5C






July 2008=34.7C






July 2009=34.9C






July 2010=34.8C


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## belem (15 Abr 2011 às 20:27)

Yes, good values, that´s it.


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## Golden Fields (19 Abr 2011 às 20:25)

Portugal and Greece are the hottest european coutries, but Portugal is more.


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## belem (19 Abr 2011 às 22:59)

Golden Fields disse:


> Portugal and Greece are the hottest european coutries, but Portugal is more.



The hottest in terms of what?


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## Golden Fields (20 Abr 2011 às 23:35)

belem disse:


> The hottest in terms of what?



Medium temperatures. 
Portuguese Winter is the milddest of europeans and Summer one of the hottest. Greek territory is very mountanious.


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## SocioMeteo (23 Abr 2011 às 10:41)

Hello sorry but my English is not 100% perfect...
But I will try to say my point of view of this issue.
What I want to say is that some Users in this Forum Only give there opinions based in expeculation and not in facts.
Bacause the true is that the portuguese city capital of distric  Warmer that is Faro with a annual average temperature between 17º-17,8º degrees is so much inferior of the values in so much places and regions of the Mediterranic, what I want to say is that the Warmer city of Portugal of the Warmer region is not in the top 20 of the warmer citys of the Europe and Mediterranic, the south of Spain there are so many places withe superior values annual average temperature like:Huelva,Malaga,Murcia,Alicante,etc etc in Secilia there so many citys the cost withe superior values annual temperatures in Malta in the Greek islands in Chipre in Corsega etc etc..this is the true the true that so many portuguese people dont want to aceppt like dont want to accept the FMI for example some portuguese people thinks that Portugal is super Warmer countrie and with the best climate of the wolrd this is not true too if we compare the south of Portugal with the climate of Great Britain with Holland Belgium etc etc yes is true our coutry is very warmer but if we compare with another coutries of the south Europe we will see that we are not so special because our climate have the influence of the Atlantic Ocean that makes a difference with the coutries 100% mediterranics we have brief  summers we have more percipitaion we have a annual average temperature more cooler that so much places in Mediterranic, this fact Nevertheless that Portugal dont have days with episodes of freezing days like the Mediterranic ok in Greece or south of Italy probably makes more freezing days with extreme temperatures that in Portugal because of the same reason that makes more cold in Berlin that in England or Irland ok.
So is not true to me that Portugal is warmer country Europe is not true is false.... because we dont have any portuguese city in the top 20 of the citys with annual average temperature more warmer in Europe.
And the true is that no one can prove that in Portugal we have temperature of 50º dregrees in false.... is especulation 
The record of temperature in Europe bellongs to a city near of Athens with 48,7º degrees 

Thanks 

and sorry of my english


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## SocioMeteo (23 Abr 2011 às 11:06)

Golden Fields disse:


> Portugal and Greece are the hottest european coutries, but Portugal is more.



Why??? Because You want??? You say the things but You dont prove theme, you limitaded to say but you can prove.... because is not true what you are saying.... the true is that in top 20 of the cities more hottest in europe there are any portuguese city but this fact you ignore.....


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## AnDré (23 Abr 2011 às 20:46)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Why??? Because You want??? You say the things but You dont prove theme, you limitaded to say but you can prove.... because is not true what you are saying.... the true is that in top 20 of the cities more hottest in europe there are any portuguese city but this fact you ignore.....



Voltamos à mesma discussão de sempre...
Já tínhamos visto que o país mais quente da Europa era Malta.
Também já foi dito que a temperatura média de um país não se vê pelas temperaturas de uma cidade, mas a partir de uma malha de pontos.
Da mesma forma que a temperatura média anual do Funchal não é a temperatura média anual da ilha da Madeira, a temperatura de Atenas e afins não representa minimamente a temperatura média do país que é a Grécia.


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## mesogeiakos (25 Abr 2011 às 23:18)

SocioMeteo disse:


> The record of temperature in Europe bellongs to a city near of Athens with 48,7º degrees



Τhe officially accepted value is 48.0C as the European record recorded in Athens in two locations in 1977. However unofficially temperatures of up to 49.2C have been recorded in the Athens basin.

In terms of the warmest country on average in the whole of geographical Europe,i guess this would be Malta,while the warmest places officially in geographical Europe would be Ierapetra and Karpathos in Greece.


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## belem (26 Abr 2011 às 02:00)

mesogeiakos disse:


> In terms of the warmest country on average in the whole of geographical Europe.



That geographical Europe issue again??
According to different sources, Europe has different limits.




mesogeiakos disse:


> while the warmest places officially in geographical Europe would be Ierapetra and Karpathos in Greece.



Yes, according to scanty data, which can give misleading results.


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## mesogeiakos (26 Abr 2011 às 22:42)

belem disse:


> That geographical Europe issue again??
> According to different sources, Europe has different limits.



Yes according to the most widely accepted versions of it.Encyclopedia Britanica,National Geographic etc.Neither the Azores and Madeira nor the Canary isles are a part of Europe.Limited sources mainly coming from Portugal and Spain include those areas in Geographic europe.

And yes Karpathos and Ierapetra are the warmest as far as science is aware right now officially.


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## belem (26 Abr 2011 às 23:40)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Yes according to the most widely accepted versions of it.Encyclopedia Britanica,National Geographic etc.Neither the Azores and Madeira nor the Canary isles are a part of Europe.Limited sources mainly coming from Portugal and Spain include those areas in Geographic europe..



Yes, please show up those sources.




mesogeiakos disse:


> And yes Karpathos and Ierapetra are the warmest as far as science is aware right now officially.



Science is aware of data limitation, that´s why nothing is published about it.


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## Ferreiro (27 Abr 2011 às 11:37)

Atenas é uma cidade na que superar os 40ºC nao é facil.
Mentres que os vales do Guadalquivir e Guadiana superan os 40ºC com muita facilidade, em Atenas as temperaturas de mais de 40ºC sao pouco frecuentes. 

Atenas-Elefsina. Elefsina é provavelmente o local mais quente da enorme cidade de Atenas.

Xulho 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31
Agosto 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=08&day=31&ndays=31
Xulho 2009
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2009&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31
Agosto 2009
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2009&mes=08&day=31&ndays=31

2 anos seguidos sin chegar a 40ºC. 
E isso que Elefsina tem forte influencia urbana e industrial.

Muito coidado com este personagem. Ja sabem de quen falo. Lembro que cando eu dissem que Almeria é mais arida que Atenas, este individuo nao o puido soportar e inventou um dado de precipitaçao falso para tratar de demostrar que Atenas é mais arida que Almeria. Um disparate.

Tampouco pode aceptar que Açores sao Europa, mas nao soporta que lhe digam que Samos, Rodhes etc, sao geograficamente asiaticas , todas elas pertencentes á plataforma continental turco-asiatica, e muito perto da costa turco-asiatica.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 00:29)

Ferreiro disse:


> Atenas é uma cidade na que superar os 40ºC nao é facil.
> Mentres que os vales do Guadalquivir e Guadiana superan os 40ºC com muita facilidade, em Atenas as temperaturas de mais de 40ºC sao pouco frecuentes.
> 
> Atenas-Elefsina. Elefsina é provavelmente o local mais quente da enorme cidade de Atenas.
> ...



Ola Ferreiro quem disse tal disparate??' de os Açores não pertencerem ao continente Europeu??' ahahahahhaha que Piada.... a questão é se os Açores não pertecem á europa pertecem a que continente??? á Atlantida??? ahahahah estão na mesma latitude do centro de Portugal muito mais perto do continente Europeu do que do que da America do Norte...ahahaha que grande disparate.... coitados dos Açores. 
Agora a o arquipelago da Madeira e o arquipelago das vossas Canárias isso sim estão geograficamente no continente africano mas só estão geograficamente porque culturalmente tanto a Madeira como as Canarias são totalmente de cultura portuguesa e espanhola....
Ferreiro ainda bem que gostas-te de Lisboa é uma linda cidade é bom conhecermos a nossa penisula e os nossos paises com coisas unicas... eu estive em Tenerife e fiquei maravilhado o parque Natural é lindissimo e o vulcão El Taide a 3600 metros de altitude é imponente os contrastes de sub-climas e flora a medida que subimos é impressionante de salientar que entre os 1900m-2500m existe os famosos Pinhais do Pinheiro das Canarias uma especie de Pinheiro impressionante e unica muito resistente muito diferente aos nossos Pinheiros Bravos em castelhano Pin Atlantico.... pois os Pinheiros das canarias resistem ao fogo e aos incendios devido actividade vulcanica da Ilha e sobrevivem a indices pequenos de percipitação anuais abaixo dos 200mm a sua existencia deve-se essencialmente á altitude da ilha.....


cumps


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 00:40)

AnDré disse:


> Voltamos à mesma discussão de sempre...
> Já tínhamos visto que o país mais quente da Europa era Malta.
> Também já foi dito que a temperatura média de um país não se vê pelas temperaturas de uma cidade, mas a partir de uma malha de pontos.
> Da mesma forma que a temperatura média anual do Funchal não é a temperatura média anual da ilha da Madeira, a temperatura de Atenas e afins não representa minimamente a temperatura média do país que é a Grécia.



Oi André entendo o teu ponto de vista...mas essa discussão é mt subjectiva e pode ser facilmente questionavel...mas para mim é muito mais importante verificar que as cidades portuguesas mais amenas nenhuma delas encontra-se sequer no top 20 das cidades mais amenas de toda Europa e isso para mim é um dado muito mas muito relevante.... agora quem em zonas inahabitadas em tese se possa especular que possa fazer essas tais temperaturas extremas isso já entramos num campo muito especulativo. 
Agora o que eu digo é verdade a nossa cidade mais amena Faro não é sequer das cidades mais amenas da europa...isso para mim dá que pensar....


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 01:23)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Oi André entendo o teu ponto de vista...mas essa discussão é mt subjectiva e pode ser facilmente questionavel...mas para mim é muito mais importante verificar que as cidades portuguesas mais amenas nenhuma delas encontra-se sequer no top 20 das cidades mais amenas de toda Europa e isso para mim é um dado muito mas muito relevante.... agora quem em zonas inahabitadas em tese se possa especular que possa fazer essas tais temperaturas extremas isso já entramos num campo muito especulativo.
> Agora o que eu digo é verdade a nossa cidade mais amena Faro não é sequer das cidades mais amenas da europa...isso para mim dá que pensar....



Há cidades mais quentes que Faro ( Funchal, por exemplo), que até é amena e duvido que haja muita cidade na Europa com a amenidade de Faro ( digo relativamente a variações grandes de temperatura). Mas isso climaticamente é irrelevante, pois Faro ocupa uma área minúscula em Portugal (  e mesmo que se ponha todas as cidades juntas!).
Sendo assim, quem lhe disse que esses artigos são baseados em especulações?
Acha que os cientistas publicam sempre artigos baseados em especulações?
Muitos desses dados foram tirados de abrigos meteorológicos  que fazem medições nos locais e não de contas feitas ao acaso, não sabia?


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 01:30)

Faro é das cidades mais amenas da Europa, disso não duvido. Tem uma média anual de 17.5ºC, mas a média anual não diz tudo, pois Faro tem um Inverno quentinho se compararmos com o Inverno de Atenas, Roma, Barcelona, Ibiza, etc. Em Janeiro, o mês mais frio do ano, a máxima média supera os 16ºC e a mínima média supera os 7ºC na estação do Aeroporto, ora suponho que na cidade estes valores sejam superiores devido ao efeito «ilha urbana». Com um Inverno tão ameno na Europa Continental só Almeria, por exemplo. Já no Verão Faro não é tão quente quanto Atenas, Nicosia ou Sevilha, máxima média a rondar os 29ºC em Julho e Agosto, mínima média pouco acima dos 18ºC.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 01:37)

belem disse:


> Há cidades mais quentes que Faro ( Funchal, por exemplo), que até é amena e duvido que haja muita cidade na Europa com a amenidade de Faro ( digo relativamente a variações grandes de temperatura). Mas isso climaticamente é irrelevante, pois Faro ocupa uma área minúscula em Portugal (  e mesmo que se ponha todas as cidades juntas!).
> Sendo assim, quem lhe disse que esses artigos são baseados em especulações?
> Acha que os cientistas publicam sempre artigos baseados em especulações?
> Muitos desses dados foram tirados de abrigos meteorológicos  que fazem medições nos locais e não de contas feitas ao acaso, não sabia?



Oi Belem tudo bem espero que a Pascoa lhe tenha corrido bem...apesar de ter sido uma pascoa molhada para mal dos pecados dos defensores do aquecimento de Portugal a deserto semi-arido,falando em semi-aridez não sei se ja la esteve mas aconselhava a ir a ilha de Tenerife principalmente na região sul para ver o que é realmente uma paisagem semi-arida praticamente impossivel em todo o territorio Nacional mesmo nesses Vales que voce fala escondidos não sei a onde que neste momento devem estar bem verdejantes....
Mas adiante não me confunda Belem... a pouco dizia ao Ferreiro que o Arquipelago da Madeira e da Canarias não estavam geograficamente em territorio Europeu penso que isso seja consensual, pois ate seria injusto falarmos da Madeira os espanhois das Canarias para dizerem ou dizermos que temos as cidades mais amenas da Europa quando na verdade ambos os arquipelagos encontram-se em territorio africano estando em Latitudes identicas ao Sul de Marrocos e á Mauritania ok? portanto excluou por completo a Madeira e as Canarias nesta analise pois não seria intelectualmente correcto da minha parte seria uma batotice intelectual....
cidades mais amenas que Faro a nivel de temperatura media anual???? zona sem expressão??' o quê todo o Algarve???? ok Mourão ou almodovar ou Vila Real Santo Antonio possam ter eventualmente valores de temperatura anual superiores a Faro.... mas contam-se pelos dedos por outro lado apresento-lhe centenas de cidades portuguesas mais frescas que Faro.... portanto não me confunda Belem a mim e aos Utilizadores deste forum.... 

cumps


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 01:41)

frederico disse:


> Faro é das cidades mais amenas da Europa, disso não duvido. Tem uma média anual de 17.5ºC, mas a média anual não diz tudo, pois Faro tem um Inverno quentinho se compararmos com o Inverno de Atenas, Roma, Barcelona, Ibiza, etc. Em Janeiro, o mês mais frio do ano, a máxima média supera os 16ºC e a mínima média supera os 7ºC na estação do Aeroporto, ora suponho que na cidade estes valores sejam superiores devido ao efeito «ilha urbana». Com um Inverno tão ameno na Europa Continental só Almeria, por exemplo. Já no Verão Faro não é tão quente quanto Atenas, Nicosia ou Sevilha, máxima média a rondar os 29ºC em Julho e Agosto, mínima média pouco acima dos 18ºC.



é das mais amenas mas não entra no top 10 nem 20 das mais amenas sejamos rigorosos e falo a nivel de temperatura media anual pois não podemos ser selectivos e falarmos apenas nos valores da temperatura num mes uma numa estação do ano quando nos convem.... 

a frente de faro temos:
huelva
sevilha
malaga
alicante
murcia
palermo
alghero
la valleta 
atenas
etc etc etc 

lol falo de cidades mais ou menos conhecidas e relevantes.... porque se fosse falar das cidades genero vila real de santo antonio dessas regiões não saia daqui.

cumps Frederico....


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 01:45)

VRSA é uma cidade fresca, devido à situação geográfica, digamos de de Inverno VRSA se encontra numa ilha de frio invernal que ocupa, diria eu, um raio de 4 ou 5 km em torno da cidade. A média anual para VRSA é de 17.4ºC, apenas uma décima inferior à  de Faro. Mas o o Baixo Guadiana, de VRSA até Mértola tem média anual superior a 17.5ºC, aliás, Sanlúcar, a escassas dezenas de metros de Alcoutim tem média anual superior a 18ºC. 

Já vi um estudo que refere médias anuais superiores a 17.5ºC no barrocal algarvio, infelizmente faltam estações que meçam temperatura, pois acredito que haja extensas áreas no sotavento a rondar os 18ºC de média anual. 

O SocioMeteo não encontra muitas cidades  com as temperaturas invernais de Faro, em toda a Europa, lamento mas discordo de si, Faro é mesmo uma das cidades mais amenas do continente europeu.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 01:46)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Oi Belem tudo bem espero que a Pascoa lhe tenha corrido bem...apesar de ter sido uma pascoa molhada para mal dos pecados dos defensores do aquecimento de Portugal a deserto semi-arido,falando em semi-aridez não sei se ja la esteve mas aconselhava a ir a ilha de Tenerife principalmente na região sul para ver o que é realmente uma paisagem semi-arida



Não preciso de ir a Tenerife, já fui ao Sahara. 



SocioMeteo disse:


> praticamente impossivel em todo o territorio Nacional mesmo nesses Vales que voce fala escondidos não sei a onde que neste momento devem estar bem verdejantes....



Errado, existem as ilhas Selvagens e sim espero que algumas partes de Portugal ainda estejam verdes, mal de nós seria, se assim não fosse.




SocioMeteo disse:


> Mas adiante não me confunda Belem... a pouco dizia ao Ferreiro que o Arquipelago da Madeira e da Canarias não estavam geograficamente em territorio Europeu penso que isso seja consensual, pois ate seria injusto falarmos da Madeira os espanhois das Canarias para dizerem ou dizermos que temos as cidades mais amenas da Europa quando na verdade ambos os arquipelagos encontram-se em territorio africano estando em Latitudes identicas ao Sul de Marrocos e á Mauritania ok? portanto excluou por completo a Madeira e as Canarias nesta analise pois não seria intelectualmente correcto da minha parte seria uma batotice intelectual....



Batotice intelectual? 
Você falou em Portugal, não especificou se era no continente ou nas ilhas.




SocioMeteo disse:


> idades mais amenas que Faro a nivel de temperatura media anual???? zona sem expressão??' o quê todo o Algarve???? ok Mourão ou almodovar ou Vila Real Santo Antonio possam ter eventualmente valores de temperatura anual superiores a Faro.... mas contam-se pelos dedos por outro lado apresento-lhe centenas de cidades portuguesas mais frescas que Faro.... portanto não me confunda Belem a mim e aos Utilizadores deste forum....
> 
> cumps



Epah, eu explico tudo de novo.
Mesmo que junte as cidades todas de Portugal, estas têm uma extensão muito pequena comparada com a área geral do país. Entendeu?
Se a pessoa quer saber mais sobre climas em PORTUGAL tem que ler as obras literárias sobre o assunto.
Para começar, já leu o livro de Orlando Ribeiro?


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 01:47)

SocioMeteo disse:


> é das mais amenas mas não entra no top 10 nem 20 das mais amenas sejamos rigorosos e falo a nivel de temperatura media anual pois não podemos ser selectivos e falarmos apenas nos valores da temperatura num mes uma numa estação do ano quando nos convem....
> 
> a frente de faro temos:
> huelva
> ...



La Valleta e Palermo ficam em ilhas... aposto que se houvesse uma estação na ilha da barreta poderia haver uma surpresa...


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 01:49)

SocioMeteo, já visitou o vale do Côa? Já visitou o vale do Águeda? Já foi a Barca de Alva? Já visitou o vale do Erges? Já visitou o vale do Tejo Internacional? Já visitou o vale da ribeiras de Oeiras (Mértola)? Depois de visitar estes locais terá moral para falar sobre aridez em Portugal.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 01:51)

frederico disse:


> VRSA é uma cidade fresca, devido à situação geográfica, digamos de de Inverno VRSA se encontra numa ilha de frio invernal que ocupa, diria eu, um raio de 4 ou 5 km em torno da cidade. A média anual para VRSA é de 17.4ºC, apenas uma décima inferior à  de Faro. Mas o o Baixo Guadiana, de VRSA até Mértola tem média anual superior a 17.5ºC, aliás, Sanlúcar, a escassas dezenas de metros de Alcoutim tem média anual superior a 18ºC.
> 
> Já vi um estudo que refere médias anuais superiores a 17.5ºC no barrocal algarvio, infelizmente faltam estações que meçam temperatura, pois acredito que haja extensas áreas no sotavento a rondar os 18ºC de média anual.
> 
> O SocioMeteo não encontra muitas cidades  com as temperaturas invernais de Faro, em toda a Europa, lamento mas discordo de si, Faro é mesmo uma das cidades mais amenas do continente europeu.




Big LOL
mas ai é que está carissimo Frederico eu concordo consigo a 300% existe é aqui uma questão de interpretação...
Porque se a discussão for Faro é das cidades com o Inverno(2,3 meses) mais ameno do territorio europeu???
sim é.....mesmo sem duvidas....
mas se for:
Faro/algarve são das cidades/regiões ao longo do ano mais amenas da Europa?
Mentira não é existem muitas cidades com valores de temperatura anual superiores a cidade de Faro.... 


algo faz com que Faro tenha valores de temperatura media anual  inferiores a dezenas de cidades do mediterraneo certo??????


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 01:53)

frederico disse:


> SocioMeteo, já visitou o vale do Côa? Já visitou o vale do Águeda? Já foi a Barca de Alva? Já visitou o vale do Erges? Já visitou o vale do Tejo Internacional? Já visitou o vale da ribeiras de Oeiras (Mértola)? Depois de visitar estes locais terá moral para falar sobre aridez em Portugal.



São locais conhecidos pela sua especificidade climática e devidamente diferenciados por isso mesmo, cientificamente.
Não é preciso saber de «rocket science» para entender que não são locais da imaginação.
Só a Bacia do Guadiana é muito maior que todas as cidades juntas de Portugal.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 01:56)

Bem Belem e Frederico vou sair amanha dia de trabalho....

fiquem bem....


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 01:57)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Big LOL
> mas ai é que está carissimo Frederico eu concordo consigo a 300% existe é aqui uma questão de interpretação...
> Porque se a discussão for Faro é das cidades com o Inverno(2,3 meses) mais ameno do territorio europeu???
> sim é.....mesmo sem duvidas....
> ...



Mas existem algum conceito geral de amenidade? Cada pessoa tem uma percepção diferente de amenidade.
Quanto muito,  é mais quente ou é mais frio, seja no inverno, no verão ou quando for.
Faro também é mais quente que dezenas de localidades da Bacia do Mediterrâneo e isso para mim, se quer saber, não me diz rigorosamente nada.
E até se encontram locais mais frios e mais quentes que Faro, em qualquer lado, seja no Algarve ou seja no Mediterrâneo.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 01:59)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Bem Belem e Frederico vou sair amanha dia de trabalho....
> 
> fiquem bem....



Fique bem e deixe de uma vez por todas de andar a insinuar que eu quero que Portugal seja um deserto.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:02)

belem disse:


> Mas existem algum conceito geral de amenidade? Cada pessoa tem uma percepção diferente de amenidade.
> Quanto muito, ou é mais quente ou é mais frio, seja no inverno ou no verão ou quando for.
> Faro também é mais quente que dezenas de localidades da Bacia do Mediterrâneo e isso para mim, se quer saber, não me diz rigorosamente nada.
> E até se encontram locais mais frios e mais quentes que Faro, em qualquer lado, seja no Algarve ou seja no Mediterrâneo.



Belem se você não quer saber eu explico...
Faro é capital de distrito e de região tem um aeroporto internacional que recebe milhões de turistas durante o ano... é um barometro meteoreologico ok.... representa o clima da região ok.... 
somos assim um pais tão quente que vejam bem.... não temos nenhuma cidade no top 20 das cidades mais amenas da europa anualmente...


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:05)

frederico disse:


> La Valleta e Palermo ficam em ilhas... aposto que se houvesse uma estação na ilha da barreta poderia haver uma surpresa...



LOL e???? se a serra da arrabida tivessem 2500 metros de altitude tinha neve quase todo o ano ao lado de casa....
Frederico não queira por uma estação metereologica na ilha da barreta so porque existem N de cidades mais amenas que as nossas...LOL e a Secilia é uma ilha mas não é propriamente uma ilhazita é só a 3ª maior ilha do territorio europeu.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:07)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Belem se você não quer saber eu explico...
> Faro é capital de distrito e de região tem um aeroporto internacional que recebe milhões de turistas durante o ano... é um barometro meteoreologico ok.... representa o clima da região ok.... ...



A estação de Faro, só mede a temperatura no local, não serve para representar o distrito.



SocioMeteo disse:


> somos assim um pais tão quente que vejam bem.... não temos nenhuma cidade no top 20 das cidades mais amenas da europa anualmente...



É irrelevante ( e não se esqueça, que também temos ilhas, não especificou se era no continente).
E quem quer saber sobre as variedades climática de um país, estuda os climas desse país, não fica pendurado num pontinho insignificante.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:07)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Big LOL
> mas ai é que está carissimo Frederico eu concordo consigo a 300% existe é aqui uma questão de interpretação...
> Porque se a discussão for Faro é das cidades com o Inverno(2,3 meses) mais ameno do territorio europeu???
> sim é.....mesmo sem duvidas....
> ...



O Verão. A máxima de Faro ronda os 29ºC, quando há várias cidades que ficam acima dos  30ºC. E a mínima de Faro fica acima dos 18ºC, quando no Mediterrâneo há várias cidades com média de Julho e Agosto, para t. mínima, igual ou superior a 20ºC. Mas se se informar melhor, os turistas nem gostam de temperaturas demasiado elevadas, dormir com mínimas acima dos 20ºC pode ser complicado, e máximas de acima dos 30ºC são desconfortáveis.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:09)

Já vi numa normal antiga uma média anual para Faro cidade de 17.8ºC. É normal que a média anual do aeroporto seja inferior, pois em Faro cidade existe o efeito «ilha urbana».


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:13)

SocioMeteo disse:


> LOL e???? se a serra da arrabida tivessem 2500 metros de altitude tinha neve quase todo o ano ao lado de casa....
> Frederico não queira por uma estação metereologica na ilha da barreta so porque existem N de cidades mais amenas que as nossas...LOL e a *Secilia* é uma ilha mas não é propriamente uma ilhazita é só a 3ª maior ilha do territorio europeu.



Sicília. Já é a terceira ou quarta vez que erra ao escrever o nome da ilha. 

Uma estação na ilha da Barreta, ou da Culatra, ou da Armona, daria uma ideia do microclima da Ria Formosa. Será que não compreende isso? Ainda o ano passado um utilizador do fórum reportou aqui mínimas durante o Verão, na Manta Rota, muito superiores às que se verificaram na estação do sapal de Castro Marim ou na do Aeroporto de Faro, foi um número consecutivo de noites tropicais naquela estância balnear do sotavento. E mais, Cabanas de Tavira ainda é mais quente que a Manta Rota.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:14)

Frederico (aqui entre quem conhece um pouco melhor o nosso país), sabia que pelo menos nos vales do Douro e do Guadiana, existem avisos para evitar actividades exploratórias, durante uma boa parte do verão, nas horas de mais calor.
Enquanto alguns litorais famosos do Mediterrâneo, cheios de propaganda, tentam atrair pessoas durante a fase balnear, outros locais,  tentam avisar para as pessoas se manterem afastadas, durante essa fase, por questões de saúde. Algo sintomático isto, não?


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:17)

frederico disse:


> O Verão. A máxima de Faro ronda os 29ºC, quando há várias cidades que ficam acima dos  30ºC. E a mínima de Faro fica acima dos 18ºC, quando no Mediterrâneo há várias cidades com média de Julho e Agosto, para t. mínima, igual ou superior a 20ºC. Mas se se informar melhor, os turistas nem gostam de temperaturas demasiado elevadas, dormir com mínimas acima dos 20ºC pode ser complicado, e máximas de acima dos 30ºC são desconfortáveis.



eu sei Frederico ja repeti isto aqui vezes sem conta.... mediterraneo verões mais longos noites mais quentes aguas mais quentes...etc etc mas tambem extremos e episodios de frio mais severos.... 
a questão é esta nos não temos um Lago gigante á nossa beira temos uma coisa imensa que se chama Oceano atlantico...mas as nossas mentes brilhantes julgam de uma forma autista que Portugal é super quente e tem super potencial turistico e tentam competir nos mesmos moldes com paises do mediterraneo que:
a) tem agua mais quente;
b) noites mais quentes;
c) menor ondulação;
d) verões mais prolongados;
e) menor mt menor instablidade na primavera e no outono

a uinca região em Portugal que pode fazer um turismo do estilo mediterraneo é o Algarve...porque o resto esqueça até a costa alentejana um casal de ingleses não querem ir para um praia com temperatura por vezes a rondar os 25ºgraus com noites dasagradaveis de 15º16º graus por vezes.... e com ondas por vezes de 2,3 metros tudo isto pode acontecer em pleno verão na costa alentejana é um facto...
enquanto nos portugueses não aceitarmos o nosso pais como ele é e não como gostariamos ou sonhassemos que fosse haveremos sempre de fazer Troias....que estão as moscas...ou centros comerciais ao ar livre que estão as moscas..... 

é o que eu acho..... mas parece que este pais perfere viver na mentira e na ilusão.... 

ok pronto vou deixar de ser polemico e vou passar a ser consensual.... basta dizer isto:
Portugal tem sol logo é tem o melhor clima do mundo....logo bora fazer Troias e brincarmos ao turismo....


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:19)

belem disse:


> Frederico (aqui entre quem conhece um pouco melhor o nosso país), sabia que pelo menos nos vales do Douro e do Guadiana, existem avisos para evitar actividades exploratórias, durante uma boa parte do verão, nas horas de mais calor.
> Enquanto alguns litorais famosos do Mediterrâneo, cheios de propaganda, tentam atrair pessoas durante a fase balnear, outros locais, tentam avisar para as pessoas se manterem afastadas, durante essa fase, por questões de saúde. Algo sintomático isto, não?



Já fiz um caminhada no vale do Águeda, em pleno mês de Junho, no pico do calor  E outra em Barca de Alva, portanto sei do que fala! Parece um forno, até se vê as rochas e o solo a emanar «ondas de calor» que distorcem a paisagem, como se estivéssemos no deserto! Algo assim só vi em mais dois locais, perto de Monfrague, e na campina de Córdoba.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:21)

SocioMeteo disse:


> eu sei Frederico ja repeti isto aqui vezes sem conta.... mediterraneo verões mais longos noites mais quentes aguas mais quentes...etc etc mas tambem extremos e episodios de frio mais severos....
> a questão é esta nos não temos um Lago gigante á nossa beira temos uma coisa imensa que se chama Oceano atlantico...mas as nossas mentes brilhantes julgam de uma forma autista que Portugal é super quente e tem super potencial turistico e tentam competir nos mesmos moldes com paises do mediterraneo que:
> a) tem agua mais quente;
> b) noites mais quentes;
> ...



O Atlântico é como o Pacífico, é um oceano cheio de correntes, riqueza marinha e com zonas de água fria e quente.
O Mediterrâneo, é um mar com forte estratificação das colunas de água, maior salinidade, muito mais pobre em vida que aquece muito no verão e arrefece muito no inverno.
Projectos à Tróia não são bem vindos, a nossa costa ainda algo selvagem em vastas zonas, é um património a preservar... Não queremos ser outra Beniform.
Quem quer calor a sério, vai para o Vale do Douro, do Tejo ou do Guadiana.
E também não vejo qual o interesse em comparar zonas de corrente fria e quente.
A Ericeira não é nenhuma Ibiza, nem nenhuma Monte Gordo, mas tem outros atributos.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:24)

frederico disse:


> Já fiz um caminhada no vale do Águeda, em pleno mês de Junho, no pico do calor  E outra em Barca de Alva, portanto sei do que fala! Parece um forno, até se vê as rochas e o solo a emanar «ondas de calor» que distorcem a paisagem, como se estivéssemos no deserto! Algo assim só vi em mais dois locais, perto de Monfrague, e na campina de Córdoba.



Frederico o Vale do Agueda ou em Barca de Alva podem ser muito quentes não digo o contrario mas tem tudo menos de semi-aridez isso é um autentico exagero...que temperaturas medias existem nessa região???? valores de percipitação?????não querem rigor querem o diz que disse nada mais que isso...


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:25)

belem disse:


> O Atlântico é como o Pacífico, é um oceano cheio de correntes, riqueza marinha e com zonas de água fria e quente.
> O Mediterrâneo, é um mar com forte estratificação das colunas de água, maior salinidade, muito mais pobre em vida que aquece muito no verão e arrefece muito no inverno.
> Projectos à Tróia não são bem vindos, a nossa costa ainda algo selvagem em vastas zonas, é um património a preservar... Não queremos ser outra Beniform.



Muito bem Belem até que enfim... raios estava dificil....


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:26)

Socio concordo com o que diz sobre Troia. O litoral alentejano nunca terá condições naturais para competir com o turismo de massas que vai para o o Algarve, Canárias ou Mediterrâneo. 

A temp. média das água do mar na costa alentejana, no Verão, ronda os 18.ºC, há nortada, as máximas podem rondar os 25ºC e as mínimas os 15ºC... Há tempos li um artigo sobre o falhanço que está a ser Tróia, com mais de metade dos apartamentos por vender, e as lojas à beira de fechar. Mas não é o único caso, ainda veremos o futuro do imobiliário na Comporta. E mesmo no Algarve há empreendimentos recentes onde estão feitas dezenas ou mesmo centenas de moradias, quase todas por vender... os estrangeiros estão a preferir outros destinos, até não tanto pelo clima, mas mais pela relação qualidade/preço. 

Mas a costa do sotavento algarvio não difere assim tanto do Mediterrâneo, Tavira, Manta Rota, Monte Gordo, têm quase todos os anos médias da água do mar a rondar os 24ºC, aliás, o Golfo de Cádiz já está a 20ºC, muito mais quente que boa parte do Mediterrâneo. 







Mas concordo, só a Madeira ou o Algarve, e diria até, o sotavento algarvio, podem concorrer com o Mediterrâneo.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:26)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Muito bem Belem até que enfim... raios estava dificil....



Mas eu não mudei de opinião.
E digo o mesmo em relação ao Freeport.
É uma valente fantuchada.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:27)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Frederico o Vale do Agueda ou em Barca de Alva podem ser muito quentes não digo o contrario mas tem tudo menos de semi-aridez isso é um autentico exagero...que temperaturas medias existem nessa região???? valores de percipitação?????não querem rigor querem o diz que disse nada mais que isso...



Já vi dados que referem menos de 400 mm para Barca de Alva, e pontos com menos de 300 mm na região. Médias ao certo não sei, mas há cultura de laranjeira nos vales dessa região, pelo que as mínimas de Inverno não devem ser lá muito baixas.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:29)

frederico disse:


> Socio concordo com o que diz sobre Troia. O litoral alentejano nunca terá condições naturais para competir com o turismo de massas que vai para o o Algarve, Canárias ou Mediterrâneo.
> 
> A temp. média das água do mar na costa alentejana, no Verão, ronda os 18.ºC, há nortada, as máximas podem rondar os 25ºC e as mínimas os 15ºC... Há tempos li um artigo sobre o falhanço que está a ser Tróia, com mais de metade dos apartamentos por vender, e as lojas à beira de fechar. Mas não é o único caso, ainda veremos o futuro do imobiliário na Comporta. E mesmo no Algarve há empreendimentos recentes onde estão feitas dezenas ou mesmo centenas de moradias, quase todas por vender... os estrangeiros estão a preferir outros destinos, até não tanto pelo clima, mas mais pela relação qualidade/preço.
> 
> ...



Frederico mas no verão esses valores explodem... no Monaco numa latitude muito superior ao Algarve a temperatura da agua do mar supera a da costa algarvia....


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:31)

A costa ocidental pode atrair sim praticantes de golfe. Mas nada mais que isso. Para atrair turistas balneares só praticando preços muito baixos. Pois quem tiver dinheiro prefere banhar-se em águas mais quentes e mais seguras. Ora o que tem sido feito no Alentejo? Empreendimentos de luxo. Estranho. Mas nos próximos anos ainda teremos provavelmente surpresas em relação a muito projecto imobiliário de luxo e a centros comerciais.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:31)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Frederico o Vale do Agueda ou em Barca de Alva podem ser muito quentes não digo o contrario mas tem tudo menos de semi-aridez isso é um autentico exagero...que temperaturas medias existem nessa região???? valores de percipitação?????não querem rigor querem o diz que disse nada mais que isso...



Existem dados sobre a vegetação, temperaturas médias máximas (  nos 3 meses mais quentes do ano para 1960-1990 (aqui são dados de aproximação)  e precipitação anual sobre alguns locais.

Semi-aridez é abaixo de 400 mm... E existem zonas onde chove muito menos que isso, o Dan colocou aqui no forum, uma fonte que distingue pelo menos, 2 regiões do Côa, onde chove até menos de 300 mm!
E atenção, que o Atlas Climático Ibérico, refere zonas de semi-aridez em Portugal ( e isto com poucas estações como referência).


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:35)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Frederico mas no verão esses valores explodem... no Monaco numa latitude muito superior ao Algarve a temperatura da agua do mar supera a da costa algarvia....



Será?

Agosto do ano passado:







Entretenha-se: http://www.knmi.nl/datacentrum/satellite_earth_observations/NOAA/archive/

Não meta a costa algarvia toda no mesmo saco. A Costa Vicentina é fria, no barlavento as t. m. ronda os 20ºC em Agosto, no Cabo de Santa Maria os 22ºC, já no sotavento rondam os 24ºC.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:35)

frederico disse:


> A costa ocidental pode atrair sim praticantes de golfe. Mas nada mais que isso. Para atrair turistas balneares só praticando preços muito baixos. Pois quem tiver dinheiro prefere banhar-se em águas mais quentes e mais seguras. Ora o que tem sido feito no Alentejo? Empreendimentos de luxo. Estranho. Mas nos próximos anos ainda teremos provavelmente surpresas em relação a muito projecto imobiliário de luxo e a centros comerciais.



É um pouco como a Califórnia e o litoral do Chile Central...
Não me faz diferença nenhuma, que não venha para cá turismo de litoral, o Algarve já chega e sobra... E se perdemos a ria Formosa e o sapal de Castro Marim, já é uma desgraça tremenda.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:39)

frederico disse:


> Já vi dados que referem menos de 400 mm para Barca de Alva, e pontos com menos de 300 mm na região. Médias ao certo não sei, mas há cultura de laranjeira nos vales dessa região, pelo que as mínimas de Inverno não devem ser lá muito baixas.



ok voce está-se a referir a encosta sul da zona demarcada do Douro a chamada terra quente certo?? sim existe o cultivo da amendoa nessa zona como da laranja etc verdade...mas que cidades a que distritos pertecem essas zonas muito restritas??? falamos de proximidade com cidades como Mirandela,Guarda certo?? Vila Real?? lamego???? etc etc acha que essas cidades apresentam valores sequer proximos aos que referiu??? falamos de distancias de 10,20,30 kms.... acontecer são fenomenos muito particulares que não devem ser generalizados como representativos de um clima ou sub-clima de uma região.... 
Outra coisa essa região lindissima é tudo semi-arida ela pode apresentar esse aspecto no verão devido a ficar com tons amarelos devido ao calor...mas ela é verdejante a maior parte do tempo... paisagem semi-arida é aquela paisagem que é seca durante todo o ano lol e isso não existe sequer em Portugal talvez so mesmo no vale do Guadiana.... e só existe a nivel Iberico em Merida.... 
Pode dizer que Frederico que essa zona Barca d Alva é semi-arida durante 2,3 meses do ano eheheheh


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:39)

belem disse:


> É um pouco como a Califórnia e o litoral do Chile Central...
> Não me faz diferença nenhuma, que não venha para cá turismo de litoral, o Algarve já chega e sobra... E se perdemos a ria Formosa e o sapal de Castro Marim, já é uma desgraça tremenda.



Na minha opinião o turismo deve ser um extra. Precisamos sim de indústria, agricultura, novas tecnologias, artes e cultura. Querer  centrar a economia nacional no turismo como muita gente defende parece-me um erro. Não é por aí que vamos enriquecer.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:42)

SocioMeteo disse:


> ok voce está-se a referir a encosta sul da zona demarcada do Douro a chamada terra quente certo?? sim existe o cultivo da amendoa nessa zona como da laranja etc verdade...mas que cidades a que distritos pertecem essas zonas muito restritas??? falamos de proximidade com cidades como Mirandela,Guarda certo?? Vila Real?? lamego???? etc etc acha que essas cidades apresentam valores sequer proximos aos que referiu??? falamos de distancias de 10,20,30 kms.... acontecer são fenomenos muito particulares que não devem ser generalizados como representativos de um clima ou sub-clima de uma região....
> Outra coisa essa região lindissima é tudo semi-arida ela pode apresentar esse aspecto no verão devido a ficar com tons amarelos devido ao calor...mas ela é verdejante a maior parte do tempo... paisagem semi-arida é aquela paisagem que é seca durante todo o ano lol e isso não existe sequer em Portugal talvez so mesmo no vale do Guadiana.... e só existe a nivel Iberico em Merida....
> Pode dizer que Frederico que essa zona Barca d Alva é semi-arida durante 2,3 meses do ano eheheheh



Engana-se, o vale do Côa por exemplo é seco durante todo o ano, tal como outros vales portugueses. Nunca lá foi, como sabe que é verdejante de Inverno? E Barca de Alva fica a largas dezenas de quilómetros das cidades que referiu. ehehe porquê? Não percebo onde está a piada.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:43)

Existem conceitos científicos de semi-aridez. Segundo Koppen-Geiger é um valor de precipitação média anual abaixo de 400mm. Não está relacionado com a aridez do verão ou do inverno.
E Mérida não é árida no inverno.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:43)

SocioMeteo disse:


> ok voce está-se a referir a encosta sul da zona demarcada do Douro a chamada terra quente certo?? sim existe o cultivo da amendoa nessa zona como da laranja etc verdade...mas que cidades a que distritos pertecem essas zonas muito restritas??? falamos de proximidade com cidades como Mirandela,Guarda certo?? Vila Real?? lamego???? etc etc acha que essas cidades apresentam valores sequer proximos aos que referiu??? falamos de distancias de 10,20,30 kms.... acontecer são fenomenos muito particulares que não devem ser generalizados como representativos de um clima ou sub-clima de uma região....
> Outra coisa essa região lindissima é tudo semi-arida ela pode apresentar esse aspecto no verão devido a ficar com tons amarelos devido ao calor...mas ela é verdejante a maior parte do tempo... paisagem semi-arida é aquela paisagem que é seca durante todo o ano lol e isso não existe sequer em Portugal talvez so mesmo no vale do Guadiana.... e só existe a nivel Iberico em Merida....
> Pode dizer que Frederico que essa zona Barca d Alva é semi-arida durante 2,3 meses do ano eheheheh



E só existe a nível ibérico em Mérida? Já percorreu a Extremadura espanhola? Província de Almeria? Vale do Ebro? Entre tantos outros locais de Espanha...


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:44)

belem disse:


> Existem conceitos científicos de semi-aridez. Segundo Koppen-Geiger é abaixo de 400mm. Não está relacionado com a aridez do verão ou do inverno.
> E Mérida não é árida no inverno.



O que não falta em boa parte de Espanha são locais com menos de 400 mm/ano.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:44)

frederico disse:


> A costa ocidental pode atrair sim praticantes de golfe. Mas nada mais que isso. Para atrair turistas balneares só praticando preços muito baixos. Pois quem tiver dinheiro prefere banhar-se em águas mais quentes e mais seguras. Ora o que tem sido feito no Alentejo? Empreendimentos de luxo. Estranho. Mas nos próximos anos ainda teremos provavelmente surpresas em relação a muito projecto imobiliário de luxo e a centros comerciais.



300% de acordo mesmo frederico é mesmo isso que eu penso...mas porque acha que isto aconteceu???? porque criou-se a ideia que o turismo seria a tabua de salvação e que tinhamos o melhor clima do mundo logo toca a brincar aos empreendimentos...quando os ingleses e os alemães querem e vamos ser francos estarem de papo para o ar a estorrarem ao sol e não se preocuparem com as crianças.... e pouco mais.... falo do turismo de massas...porque á outros nichos podemos explorar mas o turismo não será a galinha dos ovos de ouro do pais... mas sim o Mar o oceano a nossa Zona economica exclusiva e os recursos que lá possam existir.....


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:46)

frederico disse:


> Engana-se, o vale do Côa por exemplo é seco durante todo o ano, tal como outros vales portugueses. Nunca lá foi, como sabe que é verdejante de Inverno? E Barca de Alva fica a largas dezenas de quilómetros das cidades que referiu. ehehe porquê? Não percebo onde está a piada.



E mesmo que ficasse perto, seria uma justificação das diferenças enormes climáticas, que podem existir em pouca distância.
Curiosamente, essas zonas mais frias, ficam em zonas de altitude e que por vezes, até servem de barreira de condensação.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:46)

frederico disse:


> E só existe a nível ibérico em Mérida? Já percorreu a Extremadura espanhola? Província de Almeria? Vale do Ebro? Entre tantos outros locais de Espanha...



queria dizer provincia de Murcia enganei-me LOL Merida não é semi-arida... é como o nosso alentejo pertence a extremadura clima identico ás nossas cidades alentejanas enganei-me eheheh é o sono...


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:47)

SocioMeteo disse:


> 300% de acordo mesmo frederico é mesmo isso que eu penso...mas porque acha que isto aconteceu???? porque criou-se a ideia que o turismo seria a tabua de salvação e que tinhamos o melhor clima do mundo logo toca a brincar aos empreendimentos...quando os ingleses e os alemães querem e vamos ser francos estarem de papo para o ar a estorrarem ao sol e não se preocuparem com as crianças.... e pouco mais.... falo do turismo de massas...porque á outros nichos podemos explorar mas o turismo não será a galinha dos ovos de ouro do pais... mas sim o Mar o oceano a nossa Zona economica exclusiva e os recursos que lá possam existir.....



Os portugueses abominam a indústria ou a agricultura porque «dá trabalho». Já com o turismo é só montar a «tenda» e esperar que os turistas apareçam. Mas como disse há tempos o Rui Moreira, da Associação Comercial do Porto, países que vivem apenas do turismo dão muito emprego a empregados de mesa, cortadores de relva ou senhoras de limpeza, mas não a engenheiros, biológos, informáticos, bioquímicos, etc...


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:47)

frederico disse:


> O que não falta em boa parte de Espanha são locais com menos de 400 mm/ano.




Completamente de acordo.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:49)

belem disse:


> E mesmo que ficasse perto, seria uma justificação das diferenças enormes climáticas, que podem existir em pouca distância.
> Curiosamente, essas zonas mais frias, ficam em zonas de altitude e que por vezes, até servem de barreira de condensação.



Não é por acaso que perto de Figueira de Castelo Rodrigo encontramos bosquetes de carvalho-negral, e poucos quilómetros depois, já fora do planalto, só nos deparamos com arbustos, nem as azinheiras conseguem crescer.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 02:50)

frederico disse:


> Engana-se, o vale do Côa por exemplo é seco durante todo o ano, tal como outros vales portugueses. Nunca lá foi, como sabe que é verdejante de Inverno? E Barca de Alva fica a largas dezenas de quilómetros das cidades que referiu. ehehe porquê? Não percebo onde está a piada.



Não estará a exagerar um pouco???? mas irei visitar essa região ao promenor muito em breve para poder falar com conhecimento de causa... mas tenho as minhas duvidas ok devido ao efeito da altitude e de servir de barreira para certas massas de ar humidas a sul das encostas....


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:51)

SocioMeteo disse:


> queria dizer provincia de Murcia enganei-me LOL Merida não é semi-arida... é como o nosso alentejo pertence a extremadura clima identico ás nossas cidades alentejanas enganei-me eheheh é o sono...



A Extremadura é bem diferente do Alentejo, muito mais árida, com predomínio da azinheira, pouco sobreiro, ... vá lá este Verão e ficará impressionado com a diferença. Eu acho a maior parte do Alentejo fresco, quando comparado com a Extremadura ou a Andaluzia.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 02:52)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Não estará a exagerar um pouco???? mas irei visitar essa região ao promenor muito em breve para poder falar com conhecimento de causa... mas tenho as minhas duvidas ok devido ao efeito da altitude e de servir de barreira para certas massas de ar humidas a sul das encostas....



O único verde que me recordo de ver foi das vinhas da Ervamoira, perto de Vila Nova de Foz Côa


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:57)

frederico disse:


> Não é por acaso que perto de Figueira de Castelo Rodrigo encontramos bosquetes de carvalho-negral, e poucos quilómetros depois, já fora do planalto, só nos deparamos com arbustos, nem as azinheiras conseguem crescer.



E já com zimbral, típico de zonas mais áridas.
Sabe que o Auroque, enorme boi-selvagem europeu ( já extinto), percorria migrações no Vale do Douro, da montanha ( no verão), para o vale (no inverno). O homem primitivo seguia as suas movimentações. Depois houve a domesticação e o homem manteve os mesmos caminhos dos auroques, para movimentar o seu gado...
Existem ainda vestígios físicos da existência desses caminhos, no Parque Natural do Douro Internacional.


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 02:58)

frederico disse:


> A Extremadura é bem diferente do Alentejo, muito mais árida, com predomínio da azinheira, pouco sobreiro, ... vá lá este Verão e ficará impressionado com a diferença. Eu acho a maior parte do Alentejo fresco, quando comparado com a Extremadura ou a Andaluzia.



Sim, mas a Bacia do Guadiana, já é semelhante.


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## AnDré (28 Abr 2011 às 02:59)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Oi André entendo o teu ponto de vista...mas essa discussão é mt subjectiva e pode ser facilmente questionavel...mas para mim é muito mais importante verificar que as cidades portuguesas mais amenas nenhuma delas encontra-se sequer no top 20 das cidades mais amenas de toda Europa e isso para mim é um dado muito mas muito relevante.... agora quem em zonas inahabitadas em tese se possa especular que possa fazer essas tais temperaturas extremas isso já entramos num campo muito especulativo.
> Agora o que eu digo é verdade a nossa cidade mais amena Faro não é sequer das cidades mais amenas da europa...isso para mim dá que pensar....



Começa logo por falhar no conceito da palavra "ameno".
Entende-se por ameno algo suave, sem grandes oscilações.
Se Atenas e afins têm invernos mais frios e verões mais quentes que Faro, então Faro é mais ameno, correcto?

E o que é muito subjectivo, sociometeo, é resumir o clima de um país às cidades. Ainda para mais quando se fala da Grécia, que como sabe, ou deveria saber, tem um relevo muito, mas muito mais acidentado que o nosso. Daí até ter feito a comparação Funchal/Madeira. 

A Grécia tem cidades com uma temperatura anual média superior às nossas, sim! É um facto! Mas daí não pode extrapolar que a Grécia é mais quente. Porque se assim é então podemos fazer a extrapolação ao contrário. O que é a nossa serra da Estrela comparada com o monte Olimpo? Ou o que são todos os nossos sistemas montanhosos comparados com a cadeia montanhosa central da Grécia que superam "n" vezes os 2000m de altitude?
Nada... Absolutamente nada. Essas regiões gregas aniquilam qualquer ponto frio de Portugal.


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## SocioMeteo (28 Abr 2011 às 03:01)

frederico disse:


> Os portugueses abominam a indústria ou a agricultura porque «dá trabalho». Já com o turismo é só montar a «tenda» e esperar que os turistas apareçam. Mas como disse há tempos o Rui Moreira, da Associação Comercial do Porto, países que vivem apenas do turismo dão muito emprego a empregados de mesa, cortadores de relva ou senhoras de limpeza, mas não a engenheiros, biológos, informáticos, bioquímicos, etc...



por isso é que os nossos grandes empresarios investiram em centros comerciais e na grande distrubição de toda e forma e feitio do que em Industrias aniquilaram o comercio tradicional que penso q ira renascer das cinzas porque o credito ira ser cortado e os grandes espaços vivem essencialmente do credito e das classes medias pois era dinheiro facil e imediato...Mas Frederico o pior é que acho que a nivel do turismo não aprendemos com os erros... e falando em Rui Moreira ele pensa exactamente o que eu penso nessa materia pois já o vi referi-lo no programa pros e contras ele diz e muito bem que a nossa Zona economica exclusiva deverá ser mais explorada....


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## belem (28 Abr 2011 às 03:04)

SocioMeteo disse:


> por isso é que os nossos grandes empresarios investiram em centros comerciais e na grande distrubição de toda e forma e feitio do que em Industrias aniquilaram o comercio tradicional que penso q ira renascer das cinzas porque o credito ira ser cortado e os grandes espaços vivem essencialmente do credito e das classes medias pois era dinheiro facil e imediato...Mas Frederico o pior é que acho que a nivel do turismo não aprendemos com os erros... e falando em Rui Moreira ele pensa exactamente o que eu penso nessa materia pois já o vi referi-lo no programa pros e contras ele diz e muito bem que a nossa Zona economica exclusiva deverá ser mais explorada....



Concordo perfeitamente.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 03:06)

belem disse:


> Sim, mas a Bacia do Guadiana, já é semelhante.



Certo. Bem como alguns pontos fronteiriços no Alto Alentejo e na Beira Baixa.


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## frederico (28 Abr 2011 às 03:08)

SocioMeteo disse:


> por isso é que os nossos grandes empresarios investiram em centros comerciais e na grande distrubição de toda e forma e feitio do que em Industrias aniquilaram o comercio tradicional que penso q ira renascer das cinzas porque o credito ira ser cortado e os grandes espaços vivem essencialmente do credito e das classes medias pois era dinheiro facil e imediato...Mas Frederico o pior é que acho que a nivel do turismo não aprendemos com os erros... e falando em Rui Moreira ele pensa exactamente o que eu penso nessa materia pois já o vi referi-lo no programa pros e contras ele diz e muito bem que a nossa Zona economica exclusiva deverá ser mais explorada....



Interessante, há uns tempos li uma proposta do PSD para explorar a nossa ZEE... e sobre o que falava... promoção de desportos radicais, desportos marítimos e marinas!  E a investigação, onde fica? E a marinha mercante, onde fica? E as pescas? E a indústria naval? Ridículo.


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## Ferreiro (28 Abr 2011 às 13:08)

AnDré disse:


> Começa logo por falhar no conceito da palavra "ameno".
> Entende-se por ameno algo suave, sem grandes oscilações.
> Se Atenas e afins têm invernos mais frios e verões mais quentes que Faro, então Faro é mais ameno, correcto?
> 
> ...



Nem sequer é necesario chegar até a alta montanha. 
Os invernos gregos sao mais fríos que os ibericos a igualdade de latitude e altitude.
Florina 600 metros tem uma media de janeiro de 0,5ºC com dados oficiais de HNMS. Isso é algo imposivel na peninsula iberica.

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Florina

Ha que ter em conta que as estaçaos meteorologicas de Portugal estao en areas nao urbanas em geral, enquanto a maioria das estaçaos gregas estao em areas urbanas, a vezes no porto das cidades. Gostaria saber os dados duma estaçao localizada no porto ou no centro das cidades de Faro/Lisboa.


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## Amending (28 Abr 2011 às 15:26)

Atenas deve se apressar para fazer a sua 50°C, porque entretanto a floresta ao redor da estação Thiseio cresce (já agora não está totalmente de acordo com a OMM para a oclusão do céu por obstáculos nas proximidades) ea tela pode acabar na sombra durante as horas mais quentes.
Além da sombra, devemos considerar o fato de que a floresta reduz um pouco  o efeito de ilha de calor,  a partir de 1,5 - 2 ° C de  inflação media de máximas dos últimos 20-30 anos que encontramos na literatura científica, o efeito de ilha de calor pode diminuir um pouco e evitar que Thiseio fazer qualquer  pico recorde.
Estou um pouco pessimista também para Elefsina. A crise económica pode provocar uma desaceleração nas atividades industriais que  quente a área para além de seus parâmetros naturais (poluição térmica indústrial ) e nos próximos anos poderá se refrescar um pouco...


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## Costa (28 Abr 2011 às 17:11)

SocioMeteo disse:


> Outra coisa essa região lindissima é tudo semi-arida ela pode apresentar esse aspecto no verão devido a ficar com tons amarelos devido ao calor...mas ela é verdejante a maior parte do tempo... paisagem semi-arida é aquela paisagem que é seca durante todo o ano lol e isso não existe sequer em Portugal talvez so mesmo no vale do Guadiana.... e só existe a nivel Iberico em Merida....
> Pode dizer que Frederico que essa zona Barca d Alva é semi-arida durante 2,3 meses do ano eheheheh



Este é o aspecto da região em Dezembro/Janeiro


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## mesogeiakos (2 Mai 2011 às 07:50)

I dont know why this has escalated like that,but in general the continentality of NW Greece might make the whole country on average colder to Portugal.Plus Greece is larger than Portugal.So for example NW Macedonia perfecture in Greece has an extremely continental climate much more compared to areas of the rest of Med in the same latitudes due to its Balkan orientation.

However Greece has the uniqueness to have the warmest areas of Geographical Europe in average annual temperatures according to official national authorities,one is not exclusive of the other.

Regarding semi-aridity,I dont know if Portugal has an official station under Koppen classification with a semi-arid climate but in Greece* ALL 3 LARGER CITIES OF GREECE...ie Athens(Hellenikon) Thessaloniki and Larisa *have officially semi-arid climate .Athens straddles CSa BSh while South Athens and Attica has a clear semi-arid climate due to the extreme geomorphology of the Attica peninsula which creates a rain shadow for Athens and gives very low precipitations for the South Attica area.

Attica is really an amazing area climatologically.It can have extreme variations from one place to another,currently holds all the official warm records of the continent both in absolute maxes and absolute means in the summer and for its proximity to the sea an amazing variety of climatic variation.From a mean annual temperature of lower than 16C in extreme north suburbs of Athens (500 altitude) in Dionisos to over 19C in extreme south suburbs of Athens in Vouliagmeni and Voula and from more than 700mm precip in the north of the city to less than 350mm to the extreme south while at the same time the strongest candidate probably to record officially 50C in Europe...and all this in the same city!You should visit Athens to understand its extreme nature.


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## belem (3 Mai 2011 às 01:57)

mesogeiakos disse:


> I dont know why this has escalated like that,but in general the continentality of NW Greece might make the whole country on average colder to Portugal.Plus Greece is larger than Portugal.So for example NW Macedonia perfecture in Greece has an extremely continental climate much more compared to areas of the rest of Med in the same latitudes due to its Balkan orientation.
> 
> However Greece has the uniqueness to have the warmest areas of Geographical Europe in average annual temperatures according to official national authorities,one is not exclusive of the other.
> 
> ...



Greece is bigger in land territory, not on overall country territory.
And yes, Portugal have official weather stations, with semi-aridity classifications. Regarding the warmest place in Europe, I don´t have any clue.

Sorry for the offtopic.


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## Golden Fields (3 Mai 2011 às 19:55)

Portugal and Greece are identical countries in area/population.

Portugal has a bit more population, Greece has a bit more area.
Portugal has much more sea.

Portugal has more mediterranean landscape than Greece - 80% mountais. (Larissa isn't the 3rd greek city and Thessaloniki is very cold in winter, the Mediterranean Sea freeze ) This is impossbile in Lisbon, Porto, Coimbra (sea or rivers).

MELTÉMI !!


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## belem (3 Mai 2011 às 21:34)

Golden Fields disse:


> Portugal and Greece are identical countries in area/population.
> 
> Portugal has a bit more population, Greece has a bit more area.
> Portugal has much more sea.
> ...




Greece has a bit more of land area, but much less of sea area.

Population in 2010:

Portugal - 10.637.713

Greece- 11.305.118


http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tg...tion=1&footnotes=yes&labeling=labels&plugin=1


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## Golden Fields (3 Mai 2011 às 21:59)

Population
Portugal - 11,1 millions 
Greece - 10,9 millions 


Portugal has a bit more population.
Greece has a bit more area thanks East Thrace, stolen to Bulgaria and the their asiatic islands near their Turkish neighboors.


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## belem (3 Mai 2011 às 22:05)

Golden Fields disse:


> Population
> Portugal - 11,1 millions
> Greece - 10,9 millions
> 
> ...



Source for the population? Wikipedia, which also uses sources, also says that Greece has more population.
And no, Greece hasn´t more area overall.
It has a bit more of land area, but much less of sea area.


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## mesogeiakos (4 Mai 2011 às 01:35)

belem disse:


> Regarding the warmest place in Europe, I don´t have any clue.
> .



I do and these are the stations of Ierapetra and Karpathos in Greece according to the warmest means of Europe in longterm timeseries.Possibly other areas could beat those values however from official meteorological stations Ierapetra and Karpathos beat any area of the commonly accepted borders of geographical Europe.


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## mesogeiakos (4 Mai 2011 às 01:53)

Golden Fields disse:


> .
> Greece has a bit more area thanks East Thrace, *stolen to Bulgaria *and the their asiatic islands near their Turkish neighboors.



Are u like kidding me mate?Are u here to evoke political discussions for Greece?Or do u have any burning issue with Greece's policies?

In any case Greece defeated Bulgaria during the Balkan wars and ceded those areas *through the act of war.*Greece didn't steal anything from anyone.The same goes for the Islands.If you wanna do politics on Greece take it elsewhere.

Oh and btw just bsc you like national antagonism let me remind you that next time that you refer to Greece's islands as asiatic remember that it was through Greece that the European  and western civilization started ( apart from the fact that Kasterolizo is the only area of Greece in geographical Asia) .Just in case you missed that in school.I take it they teach you these stuff even in your motherland (is it Bulgaria?).Also in case you forgot Europe is a Greek word.Now pls dont make me more angry with ur nationalistic bs regarding Greece's victories over Bulgaria.If you have an issue with Greece's victories in the Balkan Wars over Bulgaria,Turkey and Serbia take it elsewhere

 Oh and finally Greece has both more population and land area compared to Portugal.This is what is meant by saying Greece is a larger country.


*GREECE*


> Area
> - 	*Total	131,990 km2 (96th)*
> 50,944 sq mi
> - 	Water (%)	0.8669
> ...





*PORTUGAL*



> Area
> - 	Total	*92,090 km2 (110th)*
> 35,645 sq mi
> - 	Water (%)	0.5
> ...


.


----------



## belem (4 Mai 2011 às 17:36)

mesogeiakos disse:


> I do and these are the stations of Ierapetra and Karpathos in Greece according to the warmest means of Europe in longterm timeseries.Possibly other areas could beat those values however from official meteorological stations Ierapetra and Karpathos beat any area of the commonly accepted borders of geographical Europe.



I would say that it doesn´t beat, because quite probably there are warmer areas. But I respect your opinion, I don´t have any problems with that. 

And yes, while Greece is a bit bigger on land area, is much smaller in sea area.
If you want I can put numbers and sources.


----------



## mesogeiakos (5 Mai 2011 às 17:13)

belem disse:


> And yes, while Greece is a bit bigger on land area, is much smaller in sea area.
> If you want I can put numbers and sources.




Really?Greece has a much smaller sea area than Portugal?This seems surprising indeed.I looked in wiki and it gives Greece a higher percentage.Do u have the sources pls? Does Portugal have all the area between mainland IP and Azores and Madeira?Doesnt some fall in international jurisdiction?

Let me note however than in terms of coastlines Greece has one of the biggest coastlines in the world due to its islands.I think Greece is among the top 10 or top 15 countries in the world in terms of coastlines.


----------



## belem (6 Mai 2011 às 00:05)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Really?Greece has a much smaller sea area than Portugal?This seems surprising indeed.I looked in wiki and it gives Greece a higher percentage.Do u have the sources pls? Does Portugal have all the area between mainland IP and Azores and Madeira?Doesnt some fall in international jurisdiction?
> 
> Let me note however than in terms of coastlines Greece has one of the biggest coastlines in the world due to its islands.I think Greece is among the top 10 or top 15 countries in the world in terms of coastlines.



Higher percentage? When you talk about these kind of surfaces, you usually use m2 or Km2.

For sources just google : Portugal ZEE and you´ll have several sources.
Portugal has currently 1.727.408 Km2,  but very probably will increase to around 3.027.408 km².

There´s a thread about that on this forum:

http://www.meteopt.com/forum/biosfera-atmosfera/amazonia-azul-4824.html


Of course that international waters are excluded.


----------



## mesogeiakos (10 Mai 2011 às 17:12)

belem disse:


> Higher percentage? When you talk about these kind of surfaces, you usually use m2 or Km2.
> 
> For sources just google : Portugal ZEE and you´ll have several sources.
> Portugal has currently 1.727.408 Km2,  but very probably will increase to around 3.027.408 km².
> ...



Yes now I see,i think bsc of the fact that Portugal has a large sea area outside the IP that gives the high number regarding the sea area.


----------



## Ferreiro (12 Mai 2011 às 16:31)

Mesogeiakos no longer provides data from that English forum in which he participates.
It's a garbage forum, where they compare weather stations in the center of a large city (Athens) with others located at airports (Seville, Faro and Palermo), away from the city center and without heat island. Moreover, in that english forum they change official data!!! 
All that is to show that Athens is the warmest city in Europe!!!
But even doing so with those traps they don't get the desired result. 
Athens is the coolest even cheating:

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=38790&start=421&posts=436


----------



## Ferreiro (12 Mai 2011 às 16:33)

A simpatica classificaçao feita com modificaçaos dos dados oficiais!!!, e ainda asim, Atenas (as 2 estaçaos mais quentes da cidade, localizadas no downtown da cidade) em ultima posiçao


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## Ferreiro (12 Mai 2011 às 16:55)

A ubicaçao das estaçaos de Atenas que usa Mesogeiakos é de risa.
Atenas-Thiseio está no centro da cidade. A mancha de cor branca que tem á dereita é a Acropolis. Muito perto da estrela vermelha, que marca no google earth o centro da cidade, esta a estaçao de Atenas-Gazi (ou Gkazi).

Nao comparam faro-aeroporto, sevilla-aeroporto ou Palermo-aeroporto com Atenas-aeroporto, nao!!!. Comparam os aeroportos dessas cidades com o centro de Atenas .

Por certo que se querem saber os dados oficiais do aeroporto de Atenas (chamado Spata) e as demais estaçaos oficiais de Atenas, no seguinte link. Olhem que as temperaturas do aeroporto sao em geral muito mais frescas que as do interior da cidade (Thiseio e Gazi, que nem sequer sao estaçaos oficiais do HNMS):
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/observation/yesterday_html?&dr_region=ObsAttiki


----------



## mesogeiakos (22 Mai 2011 às 14:57)

Ferreiro disse:


> Mesogeiakos no longer provides data from that English forum in which he participates.



You must be kidding me right?What are you smoking my friend?


----------



## mesogeiakos (22 Mai 2011 às 15:00)

Here is an article posted in Greece's biggest blog earlier this month.Check it out,its interesting and pretty much replicates the news of the 50C estimated from the Greek Ministry of Climate Change and also the European record



> Παρασκευή, 6 Μαΐου 2011
> 
> 
> *Αθήνα : πανευρωπαϊκό ρεκόρ θερμοκρασίας με 48.0°c το 1977 ενω συντομα στους 50.0°c σύμφωνα με τις αρχές*
> ...


http://tro-ma-ktiko.blogspot.com/20...utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/hyMBI+(tromaktiko)


----------



## belem (23 Mai 2011 às 00:04)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Yes now I see,i think bsc of the fact that Portugal has a large sea area outside the IP that gives the high number regarding the sea area.



Yes, Portugal is geographically bigger than previously thought ( not because of political issues or stolen places located overseas).


----------



## Ferreiro (23 Mai 2011 às 16:22)

mesogeiakos disse:


> You must be kidding me right?What are you smoking my friend?



Well, you can explain to them that Rincon de la Victoria is the hottest coastal city of Spain. The data are in the AEMET website.  Well ahead of Crete and Rhodes (same result on February, March and April. And Probably on January too) .


----------



## Ferreiro (31 Mai 2011 às 15:10)

Ja temos os dados oficiais de temperatura das estaçaos oficiais gregas no mes de abril (climatic bulletin of April):

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/index_html

Em quanto a Atenas, as 4 estaçaos oficiais da cidade tiveram as seguintes temperaturas medias (longitude, latitude, media, maxima, minima)





Mas calculando a temperatura media coa formula de maxima e minima dividida por 2 (como facemos em Espanha e Portugal), as medias sao:

Elefsina 14,70ºC
Tatoi 12,55ºC
Helliniko 15,05ºC
Spata (é o aeroporto de Atenas) 12,4ºC

No mesmo mes de abril, San Pablo (aeroporto de Sevilla) 20,0ºC. Quase 8ºC mais que o aeroporto de Atenas!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
O dado oficial de Sevilla-San Pablo: http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclimat?mode=1&state=Spa&ind=&ord=REV&verb=no&year=2011&mes=04&months=


Por outra banda, Rodas teve uma media de 16,7ºC, Karpathos 16,7ºC e Herakleio (Creta) 15,4ºC.
No mesmo periodo, segundo os resumos diarios de AEMET, Fuengirola 19,22ºC, San Fernando 18,96ºC, Rincón de la Victoria 20,13ºC. 






Abril foi muito mais quente na peninsula iberica que Grecia, mesmo resultado en marzo e fevereiro. E tambem em maio. Estou totalmente certo que ao final do ano, Rincon de la Victoria, será mais quente que toda Grecia, ilhas asiaticas inclusive.


----------



## Amending (31 Mai 2011 às 18:41)

Ferreiro disse:


> Ja temos os dados oficiais de temperatura das estaçaos oficiais gregas no mes de abril (climatic bulletin of April):
> 
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/index_html
> 
> ...




That's interesting. Here are the means of Elefsina for April 2011 computed from synops data:

integration method mean: 14.4°C
NOAA mean = (tmin+tmax)/2: 14.3°C
mean tmin = 9.9°C
mean tmax = 18.7°C

There is something I do not understand in how HNMS treats temperature samples. Mean tmax corresponds but mean tmin does not. Next I try to recompute integration mean after collapsing data by day and hour. Maybe this effect depends on imbalance of sampling between night and day.  In my opinion the best thing to do is emailing Sarantopoulos and asking him.


----------



## Amending (31 Mai 2011 às 18:48)

In April sampling was not terrily unbalanced 


```
[FONT="Courier New"]------------------------------------------------
         hh        Freq.     Percent        Cum.
------------------------------------------------
          0           58        4,12        4,12
          1           58        4,12        8,24
          2           58        4,12       12,37
          3           59        4,19       16,56
          4           58        4,12       20,68
          5           58        4,12       24,80
          6           59        4,19       29,00
          7           60        4,26       33,26
          8           60        4,26       37,53
          9           60        4,26       41,79
         10           58        4,12       45,91
         11           59        4,19       50,11
         12           59        4,19       54,30
         13           59        4,19       58,49
         14           58        4,12       62,62
         15           58        4,12       66,74
         16           60        4,26       71,00
         17           58        4,12       75,12
         18           57        4,05       79,18
         19           60        4,26       83,44
         20           60        4,26       87,70
         21           59        4,19       91,90
         22           58        4,12       96,02
         23           56        3,98      100,00
------------------------------------------------
      Total        1.407      100,00
------------------------------------------------[/FONT]
```


----------



## Amending (31 Mai 2011 às 18:56)

Here are the results after averaging the samples by hour.


```
[FONT="Courier New"]
   month        tmed      noaa      tmin      tmax
--------------------------------------------------
       1         9,6       9,8       6,2      13,3
       2        10,0       9,8       6,0      13,7
       3        10,7      10,8       7,0      14,7
       4        14,4      14,3      10,1      18,6
       5        19,4      19,4      14,6      24,2
--------------------------------------------------
    Mean        12,8      12,8       8,8      16,9
--------------------------------------------------[/FONT]
```

(data of May end yesterday afternoon, when I downloaded the synops).

So tmin are means of coolest hour (on average), tmax are means of warmest hours (on average), tmed are means of hourly means and noaa are simple means of warmest and coolest hours. This operation does not reconciliate the results with the HNMS bulletin. I do not understand what they do with their temperature samples. 
They do not use hourly means instead of absolute tmin and tmax, but their tmin are higher than absolute mins extracted from synops.


----------



## Amending (31 Mai 2011 às 21:18)

This effect may depend on rounding error. The synops I found are rounded to integer in degrees C.


----------



## Ferreiro (1 Jun 2011 às 11:19)

Amending disse:


> That's interesting. Here are the means of Elefsina for April 2011 computed from synops data:
> 
> integration method mean: 14.4°C
> NOAA mean = (tmin+tmax)/2: 14.3°C
> ...





Yes, it is strange. It would be interesting to contact with Mr. Sarantopoulos, but we'll see if he responds to your email. I hope you keep us informed!


----------



## Amending (2 Jun 2011 às 17:41)

Here a scientific article saying that there is motived expectation for increasing extreme events, hot days and warm nights in Athens in the future.
*
Giannakopoulos C., Hatzai M., Kostopoulou E., McCarty M., Goodess C. (2010). "The impact of climate change and urban heat islands on the occurrence of extreme events in cities. The Athens case". Proc. of the 10th International Conference on Meteorology, Climatology and Atmospheric Physics, Patras, Greece, May 25th–28th, 2010, pp. 745–752.*

The article can be retrieved by downlading the Comecap 2010 conference proceedings at http://www.comecap10.upatras.gr/ and then in the next page select "conference proceedings". Notice that it is a huge file (74 mb)

Abstract:
_An assessment of  the cumulative impacts of urban heat islands, climate change and anthropogenic heat emissions  on the occurrence of extreme events in Athens is presented. Towards this aim, novel climate model simulations of HadRM3 model are used, including the sub-grid urban land-surface model MOSES2.2. Experiments are explored both for the present (1971-1990) and future climate (2041-2060) under  the A1B  emission  scenario,  including  the influence of the urban surface and anthropogenic heat emissions. The frequency of extreme temperatures, the number of hot days and nights,  and the UHI magnitude are analysed.  It is found  that the UHI increases the number of hot nights and days in both present and future climates.  
_

Conclusion:_
We have presented an analysis of the influence of the urban land surface and urban anthropogenic heat emissions for  the city of Athens. A simple urban surface exchange scheme is found to capture the main meteorological characteristics of a Mediterranean urban heat island, when compared to an analysis of observational data for Athens. Temperature changes in response to an SRES A1B climate change scenario by the 2050s  are  similar for urban and nonurban surfaces.  UHI responds significantly to changes in the anthropogenic heat emissions of a city.  The  study has shown that elevating this heating from 15Wm-2 to 45Wm-2 (UrbAnthr and Urb3Anthr simulations, respectively)  can increase  the average UHI by one class. These heat emissions values are probably reasonable at the scale of the regional climate model, but within the core of large cities heat emissions can be orders of magnitude larger than these (Ichinose et al. 1999). 
The cumulative impact of climate change and urban heat islands on the frequency of extreme events has been presented. It became evident from this sensitivity study that in order to  assess potential risks to people and infrastructure within our cities it is essential to consider the combined role of global warming and local urban warming. _


I am just slightly skeptical about the use of the Tanagra station as a rural reference station for the evaluation of the UHI of the NOA station. But 3 authors over 5 are researchers of the National Observatory of Athens, so I assume that they know what they do and they have their reasons for doing so.


----------



## Amending (3 Jun 2011 às 14:08)

Ferreiro disse:


> Yes, it is strange. It would be interesting to contact with Mr. Sarantopoulos, but we'll see if he responds to your email. I hope you keep us informed!



I do not think he is replying to me again.

However the issue of the difference between "Greek" means and NOAA means (simple means of minimum and maximum temperatures) goes on, and not only for the NOA station. Something similar happens for the Athens-Hellinikon weather station.

```
Athens Hellinikon, means 1961-1990
[FONT="Courier New"] ---------------------------------------------
[b]            tmax      tmin   tmedgre      tmed[/b]
 ---------------------------------------------
   Jan      13,4       7,0      10,2      10,2
   Feb      13,9       7,3      10,5      10,6
   Mar      15,8       8,6      12,4      12,2
   Apr      19,4      11,7      16,0      15,6
   May      24,0      15,8      20,6      19,9
   Jun      28,5      20,0      25,0      24,3
   Jul      31,6      22,8      27,8      27,2
   Aug      31,4      22,6      27,6      27,0
   Sep      28,2      19,7      24,3      24,0
   Oct      23,0      15,5      19,3      19,3
   Nov      18,9      12,0      15,4      15,5
   Dec      15,2       8,9      12,0      12,1
 ---------------------------------------------
[b]  Mean      21,9      14,3      18,4      18,1[/b]
 ---------------------------------------------
(Source of data ftp://dossier.ogp.noaa.gov/GCOS/WMO-Normals/RA-VI/GR/16716.TXT): [/FONT]
```
But in this case, NOAA means are lower than the means computed by the use of the Greek formula. This stuff is quite obscure.


----------



## Amending (3 Jun 2011 às 14:10)

Yeah, here are some methods for the computation of means. 

http://dss.ucar.edu/datasets/ds570.0/docs/t_mean_method.html


----------



## Amending (3 Jun 2011 às 18:41)

It is not the first time I investigate this point. I have tried to apply a couple of "Greek" forumulas for mean computation to my data in order to see what happens. I have tested on my 2010 data (5 minute instantaneous samples with passive Davis shield) the differences between NOAA means and integration means (tmed), and two "Greek" methods: 1) means of temperatures measured at 8, 14 and 21h; 2) means of temperatures measured at 8, 14 and 21h plus tmin and tmax, that is the formula used by Katsoulis & Theoharatos in their study about Athens UHI.
Here are the deviations of these means from the NOAA mean, so (tmin+tmax)/2





I had already done this previously, with the use of my 2009 data, and the results were slightly different. However we see that with my climatic conditions the two "Greek" means are reasonably similar to NOAA means (appreciable difference only in May), and they perform all very very poorly compared to the integration method ones: they are junk statistics all the year long but not worse than NOAA means under my climatic conditions. The overestimation compared to integration mean is clear and systematic but not greater for Greek means than for NOAA means.
And this surprises me once again, as the analysis of the HNMS monthly bulletins reveals that their way to compute means quite systematically overestimates the NOAA means; maybe this depends on prevailing Greek climatic conditions, but it can depend also on data construction, measurement technique (shielding, temperature sensors response etc).


----------



## Amending (7 Jun 2011 às 09:15)

Ferreiro disse:


> Ja temos os dados oficiais de temperatura das estaçaos oficiais gregas no mes de abril (climatic bulletin of April):
> 
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/index_html
> 
> ...



This is also interesting. Take a look of the mean of the Meteoclub ham station at Nea Filadelfia for April 2011:
http://www.wunderground.com/weather...D=IU0391U03&year=2011&month=4&graphspan=month

14.5°C.

Exactly as Kassomenos & Katsoulis (2006) said. Elefsina records most of the time temperatures higher than the urban areas of Athens. Unfortunately the ham station at Aspropyrgos (next to Elefsina) does not report and its website is down. It would be a very interesting comparison.


----------



## stormy (7 Jun 2011 às 11:05)

Amending disse:


> This is also interesting. Take a look of the mean of the Meteoclub ham station at Nea Filadelfia for April 2011:
> http://www.wunderground.com/weather...D=IU0391U03&year=2011&month=4&graphspan=month
> 
> 14.5°C.
> ...



Em Portugal o Instituto de Meteorologia utiliza a média composta.


----------



## Amending (10 Jun 2011 às 18:38)

Extremely interesting article about temperature distributions inside Athens: http://kkccyu.cjb.net/science/article/pii/S2210670710000041

Full-text pdf: http://kkccyu.cjb.net/science?_ob=M...2a53c2845b6edb133c040b48b7b&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

(not sure that the full-text link is static, just clic *PDF (2762 K)* in the previous page).
Cross and finger, it seems that the warmest part of Athens is Peristeri in average summer temperatures and in average tmax mean temperatures (notice the +40°C in July 2009 and +40.6°C in August 2009 means).

So now we know where Athens' +50°C will most likely fall: in Peristeri. Very fortunately there are some ham stations in Peristeri, so we will have the pleasure to see that +50°C in realtime.
The maps of temperatures distributions the authors present are very very interesting.
Very correctly the authors say that not all that heat is UHI, they acknowledge a role of orography in favouring the development of intense heat in Athens.


----------



## Amending (10 Jun 2011 às 18:59)

Confirmed. Peristeri seems the warmest part of Athens, ex aequo with Moschato:

```
[B]Athens' urban average temperatures, summer 2009 (°C)[/B]
[FONT="Courier New"]---------------------------------------------------------------------
[B]Station          June            July           August           Mean[/B]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Moschato         28,4            30,7            29,9            29,7
Peristeri        27,9            31,0            30,1            29,7
Byronas          28,0            30,4            29,4            29,3
Kallithea        27,9            29,9            28,8            28,9
Petroupoli       27,4            30,1            28,9            28,8
Renti            26,7            29,9            29,4            28,7
Agia Varvara     27,6            30,1            28,3            28,7
Agii Anargyri    27,1            29,9            29,0            28,7
Haidari          27,5            29,5            28,2            28,4
Ilion            27,1            29,5            28,4            28,3
Athens Univ.     27,4            29,4            28,1            28,3
Korydallos       27,0            29,7            28,1            28,3
Kamatero         27,3            29,4            27,7            28,1
Egaleo           26,6            29,3            28,3            28,1
Zefyri           26,5            29,2            28,5            28,1
Glyfada          26,1            29,0            28,4            27,8
Kessariani       26,9            28,9            27,5            27,8
Ilioupooli       26,9            29,0            27,4            27,8
Elliniko         25,4            29,1            28,7            27,7
Ano Liossia      26,6            28,9            27,5            27,7
N. Philadelphia  26,4            28,6            27,5            27,5
Agia Paraskevi   26,3            28,5            27,7            27,5
Maroussi         26,4            28,7            27,2            27,4
Zografou         26,6            28,2            26,7            27,2
N. Erythrea      25,2            27,0            26,3            26,2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
[B]Mean             26,9            29,4            28,2            28,2[/B]
---------------------------------------------------------------------[/FONT]
Source: Giannopoulou et al. (2011). "On the characteristics of the summer urban heat
island in Athens, Greece". Sustainable Cities and Society, 1, pp. 16-28.
```


----------



## Amending (10 Jun 2011 às 19:34)

Amending disse:


> Extremely interesting article about temperature distributions inside Athens: http://kkccyu.cjb.net/science/article/pii/S2210670710000041
> 
> Full-text pdf: http://kkccyu.cjb.net/science?_ob=M...2a53c2845b6edb133c040b48b7b&ie=/sdarticle.pdf
> 
> (not sure that the full-text link is static, just clic *PDF (2762 K)* in the previous page).




Very strange. I see the article abstract, the full-text html and the full-text PDF, but if I clic the link above I get the usual page "purchase the article".

Who is interested in and can't access the full text, ask me the article. In some way we arrange.

A quick note; I have computed the integration mean of Elefsina for these 3 months in order to compare it with the figures above, and it is 27,8°C (June 2009 = 26,3°C; July 2009 = 28,9°C, August = 28,5°C).


----------



## Amending (5 Jul 2011 às 14:46)

Também isso é interessante

​
Parece que a Grécia se sente ameaçado por um aquecimento e uma grave deterioração de suas condições climáticas.


----------



## Goku (5 Jul 2011 às 22:15)

Coitada da Grécia que só acontece tudo de mal.


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## belem (8 Jul 2011 às 18:19)

Amending disse:


> Também isso é interessante
> 
> http://youtu.be/oDZiJYz3STY​
> Parece que a Grécia se sente ameaçado por um aquecimento e uma grave deterioração de suas condições climáticas.



Penso que é um problema idêntico a muitas outras regiões do mundo.


----------



## Amending (11 Jul 2011 às 09:02)

*I can proudly announce that Athens has achieved its maximum greater than 50°C, recorded by a station that is (self-) defined WMO compliant.*

See this topic:
http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=43914&posts=3&start=1

The wonderful maximum of *+52,77°C* (new European record for WMO compliant stations but not official because the station does not belong to a network affiliated with WMO) was measured in Athens on 07/10/2004 (October 7, 2004) at 15:08:


```
[FONT="Courier New"]07/10/2004	[B]52.77[/B]	82.21	317132.81	9.26	6225.25	8666.35	15856.66	1010.45	120.12	55.24	0.00	0.11	0.06	5.42	16.39	[/FONT]
```

Here we see a graph of this performance:


​*Source: data downloaded from http://meteo.chi.civil.ntua.gr/en/customrep.php (custom reports)​*
Approximately at the center of the graph, we can see a peak indicating the volitive power of the purest tempered steel, we can define its top as solitude of the heights above 50°C.












































​
Clic here http://meteo.chi.civil.ntua.gr/en/commonstationstats.php?mode=all and select "actual" and then "submit". We obtain negative sunshine durations, negative solar radiations, wind speeds of 14700 m/s, values that suggest that these data are not validated by human personnel, it is a raw database.





Now I hope Athens does not shoot a true +50°C this summer; if so I should escape friar


----------



## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 08:48)

Amending disse:


> *I can proudly announce that Athens has achieved its maximum greater than 50°C, recorded by a station that is (self-) defined WMO compliant.*
> 
> See this topic:
> http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=43914&posts=3&start=1
> ...




Had you going there for a minute ha?I would just love to see the dread and fear in Amending's eyes when he show my topic.I would even pay for that to be honest!!

Meanwhile and leaving aside the creative statistics of Amending,lets see how Athens and Attica are going to lead again this summer in Europe.Apart from last summer with a definitive victory over Andalusia,lets see how the summer of 2011 is gonna pan out for Athens

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=43274&start=121&posts=139

You can defo feel Amending's stress there 

Let Athens rule Europe ONCE AGAIN!!!


----------



## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 08:58)

Amending disse:


> I do not think he is replying to me again.



Gee,I wonder why


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 09:16)

Currently for July only Athens is leading the way in Europe.I have a feeling that Attica is going for a rather warm July and I am expecting Athens to win the accolade of warmest area in Europe for the entirety of summer 2011,as was also the story for last summer.

In fact during August 2010 Seville managed its mean record and even with a record breaking month for Seville in term of means (that was not the story for Athens) Seville was unable to beat Athens.

Let me remind you that from all the WMO stations in Europe the Thiseio station managed the warmest mean summer temperature for June,July,August kneeling Seville.I think the pattern is going to be the same this year as well.

Apart from the mean temps and coming back on topic it seems that Athens and 50C gives us roughly 80.000 hits in google in the Greek language


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## Ferreiro (12 Jul 2011 às 12:33)

Poor Mesogeiakos, to beat Sevilla airport he has to find a weather station situated in the center of a city of several million people with a huge heat island. 
Even then, Sevilla airport is hotter than the center of Athens.
A sad result for him and it had caused his absence from the forum for a long time.


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## Ferreiro (12 Jul 2011 às 12:38)

Weather stations from Seville, Almería, Faro and Palermo at airports. Weather stations from Athens at donwtown. 
Even so, Seville airport and Almeria airport are warmer than Athens downtown





Poor man.


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 12:56)

Ferreiro disse:


> Poor Mesogeiakos, to beat Sevilla airport he has to find a weather station situated in the center of a city of several million people with a huge heat island.
> Even then, Sevilla airport is hotter than the center of Athens.
> A sad result for him and it had caused his absence from the forum for a long time.



I understand you have a difficulty in reading comprehension of the English language.Now let's do baby steps and tackle two terms.SUMMER and MEANS.

I suggest you kneel to Athens mate!


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## Costa (12 Jul 2011 às 13:14)

This are the averages. Anything else are just random years selected tendentiously.


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 15:21)

Costa,then maybe you need check the 1971-2000 summer averages for Thiseio *which are directly comparable to Seville *and with the use of simple mean method calculation (the one used by AEMET) in order to have comparable data,Seville kneels to Athens.

I am surprised you are not well read,you participate in the UK forum after all



> *1971-2000 Thiseio WMO id 16714
> 
> June
> 30.6
> ...



Those are readily available from the National Observatory of Athens
http://cirrus.meteo.noa.gr/forecast/bolam/index.htm  check monthly bulletins and the month of interest
*
In fact if you look at the last decade you will not find a single year that Athens has not destroyed Seville in the summer means.They offer detailed data from 2001 onwards...*


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## vitamos (12 Jul 2011 às 15:43)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Costa,then maybe you need check the 1971-2000 summer averages for Thiseio *which are directly comparable to Seville *and with the use of simple mean method calculation (the one used by AEMET) in order to have comparable data,Seville kneels to Athens.
> 
> I am surprised you are not well read,you participate in the UK forum after all
> 
> ...



Link to those Thiseio averages?

Costa posted official data and personally I’m starting to feel annoyed of all these senseless talk of “mine is bigger than yours, my city is hotter than yours, we’re the best, blá, blá…

For me what counts is official data! 

Have you official data that support your argumentation if yes, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I prefer to believe in real data!


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## Ferreiro (12 Jul 2011 às 15:51)

vitamos disse:


> Link to those Thiseio averages?
> 
> Costa posted official data and personally I’m starting to feel annoyed of all these senseless talk of “mine is bigger than yours, my city is hotter than yours, we’re the best, blá, blá…
> 
> ...



Sim, podes consultar os dados do periodo 1930-1960 e do periodo 1960-1990:

http://www.meteo.noa.gr/ENG/iersd_climat-table.htm

1960-1990. Xulho 27,0ºC, Agosto 26,6ºC. Temperatura media anual 17,7ºC.

De novo há que advertir que a estaçao está localizada no centro geografico de Atenas, com uma enorme ilha de calor.


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 15:52)

vitamos disse:


> Link to those Thiseio averages?
> 
> Costa posted official data and personally I’m starting to feel annoyed of all these senseless talk of “mine is bigger than yours, my city is hotter than yours, we’re the best, blá, blá…
> 
> ...



I think you missed my link above.Now regarding the rhetorics I can adjust if you find it insulting.My point is that Athens for the same period of *1971-2000 *is warmer than Seville from official WMO stations as indicated by the data readily available in the climatic bulletins of the National Observatory of Athens


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## vitamos (12 Jul 2011 às 15:56)

Ferreiro disse:


> Sim, podes consultar os dados do periodo 1930-1960 e do periodo 1960-1990:
> 
> http://www.meteo.noa.gr/ENG/iersd_climat-table.htm
> 
> ...



E mesmo assim as médias de Sevilha são ligeiramente superiores, com uma diferença reduzida? Não percebo a dúvida nem a guerra...


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 16:01)

vitamos disse:


> E mesmo assim as médias de Sevilha são ligeiramente superiores, com uma diferença reduzida? Não percebo a dúvida nem a guerra...



Did you actually get my link for the 1971-2000 means?The Athenian ones are higher and I would say substantially for the same period.


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 16:10)

Ok maybe you guys have problem locating the files in the link I provided.You need to check under ''monthly bulletins'' in the left hand upper corner and then check for the month of interest.

Alternatively here are the data from screenshots

June







July






August






As you can see vitamos from the official data of the National Observatory of Athens for the station of Thiseio with WMO id 16714 *for the  directly comparable period of 1971-2000* Athens is substantially warmer to Seville during the summer


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## Ferreiro (12 Jul 2011 às 16:22)

vitamos disse:


> E mesmo assim as médias de Sevilha são ligeiramente superiores, com uma diferença reduzida? Não percebo a dúvida nem a guerra...



Tambem ha que explicar que a estaçao meteorologica de thiseio nao é uma estaçao oficial do HMNS (a instituçao oficial em Grecia):

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_html

A estaçao de Thiseio é propiedade do NAO uma instituçao de astronomía:
http://www.noa.gr/indexen.html


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 16:24)

Ferreiro disse:


> Tambem ha que explicar que a estaçao meteorologica de thiseio nao é uma estaçao oficial do HMNS (a instituçao oficial em Grecia):
> 
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_html
> 
> ...



I always find funny this argument.The station is a WMO station and its data is communicated through HNMS to the WMO.

The important thing is the WMO affiliation.Also this station is the oldest in Greece with a well document history of more than 160 years.Its database is huge and certainly the most historic in the Balkans and in all of south europe!


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## vitamos (12 Jul 2011 às 17:16)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Ok maybe you guys have problem locating the files in the link I provided.You need to check under ''monthly bulletins'' in the left hand upper corner and then check for the month of interest.
> 
> Alternatively here are the data from screenshots
> 
> ...



Ok thanks! Now we have some data... However from a climatological point view we have here a real problem. Different data from different stations. Which ones are comparable? At this moment I confirm the problem that has been placed here and other topics… Independently from different points of view or “passions” we’ll always be circling around the some without concluding anything in concrete.


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## Ferreiro (12 Jul 2011 às 17:18)

mesogeiakos disse:


> I always find funny this argument.The station is a WMO station and its data is communicated through HNMS to the WMO.
> 
> The important thing is the WMO affiliation.Also this station is the oldest in Greece with a well document history of more than 160 years.Its database is huge and certainly the most historic in the Balkans and in all of south europe!



A túa resposta é um absurdo completo. Ter ilha de calor nao implica nao poder ser membro do WMO. Nao tem nada que ver. Uma estaçao poder ter uma ilha de calor inmensa e ser membro do WMO. É completamente compativel.


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## mesogeiakos (12 Jul 2011 às 18:43)

vitamos disse:


> Ok thanks! Now we have some data... However from a climatological point view we have here a real problem. Different data from different stations. Which ones are comparable? At this moment I confirm the problem that has been placed here and other topics… Independently from different points of view or “passions” we’ll always be circling around the some without concluding anything in concrete.




True but I think the dynamic factor for Athens and to be honest for most of south europe is the trend we are seeing for warmer summers which is mostly attributed to the natural cyclic patterns of climate change at least in south europe.

I must draw your attention on the data of the last decade,from 2001 to 2011 (you can find those in the climatic bulletins ). The summer difference between Athens and Seville is huge...in fact Athens comes out warmer by more than 1.2C for the whole summer in terms of means compared to Seville in the last decade and this with the realization that Seville had some pretty nasty and warm summers as well.

If you check the last decade data,you will not find a single year that Athens does not come out warmer in the summer compared to Seville

Now this is very important considering that Athens is a metropolis of almost 5million people and the heat stress during the summer is a limiting factor for almost 35% of Greece's population which lives in Athens.This is why Athens is gaining momentum internationally in research regarding its warm summer climatology.We are talking about associated costs,lowering of quality of life and potential human life loss apart from the huge sociological impact this constant warming has in the Greek capital


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## Ferreiro (12 Jul 2011 às 21:20)

Lembro que o ano pasado Sevilla aeroporto superou os 40ºC umas 10 vezes. Andujar os superou mais de 20 vezes. Cantas vezes sucedeu o mesmo em Atenas? Acho que nenhuma. 
As medias de Atenas subem pelas suas minima altas, e nao se pode negar a ilha de calor no tema das temperaturas minimas, mas em promedio de maximas sempre queda moito longe doutras regioes da peninsula iberica.

Inclusive este mes de xulho, que é mais frio do habitual na peninsula iberica, sevilla ja superou os 40ºC, e tambem os superou em xunho. Atenas nao.


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 09:42)

Costa,here are the updated data for Athens for 1971-2000 for temperature and 1961-1990 for rain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens


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## vitamos (13 Jul 2011 às 11:09)

Costa disse:


> This are the averages. Anything else are just random years selected tendentiously.





mesogeiakos disse:


> Costa,here are the updated data for Athens for 1971-2000 for temperature and 1961-1990 for rain
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens



Ok, now we have comparable data. Let’s start globally. The simple mean (which is the compared data that he have) show us that Thissio and Sevilla have similar annual mean temperatures (Sevilla 18,6ºC , Thissios 18,3ºC). Athens and Thissio stations present similar mean maximum values. Sevilla here leads clearly. One difference here regards to minimum temperatures. In fact Athens present higher minimum temperatures in summer. During this period that trends leads to comparable values of mean temperature. In a global analysis, I see quite similar data with higher values of minimum temperature in Athens, facing more extreme maximum temperatures in summer in Sevilla, leading global equilibrium on mean values. Collecting all data, I can’t understand some argumentation here. I don’t see with all this OFFICIAL DATA, in what kind of way Athens “destroy” Sevilla (whatever that means)…


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 13:30)

Leaving aside my rhetorics of ''destroying'' which were aimed at a particular member from Spain with a fixation for Athens

I am not reffering to annual means but summer means.In that sense Athens has clearly the lead as is also the case for the extreme values (ie temps over 45C) during the summer
*
In this way we understand that officially the warmest area of Europe is Athens during the summer* and also with an extreme dynamic in extreme temps.For example the European record and various temps over 45C.I am merely saying that a peninsula by the sea such as Attica is the European ''leader'' in heat as this is shown by the summer means AND extreme temps dynamic and not an area in inland Iberia

Btw Vitamos its Thissio and it is the most historic and representative station of Athens.It is the one used and cited most  in meteorology research in Greece.A history of 160 years data at the heart of Athens in its tallest hill!

Now let's see if we can manage this 50C!


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## vitamos (13 Jul 2011 às 14:10)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Leaving aside my rhetorics of ''destroying'' which were aimed at a particular member from Spain with a fixation for Athens
> 
> I am not reffering to annual means but summer means.In that sense Athens has clearly the lead as is also the case for the extreme values (ie temps over 45C) during the summer
> *
> In this way we understand that officially the warmest area of Europe is Athens during the summer*



None official data including the one you shown evidences that...


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 14:14)

vitamos disse:


> None official data including the one you shown evidences that...




what do you mean?According to the simple mean method commonly used internationally, Athenian means surpass Seville in the summer for the comparable period.Do you want a breakdown?


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## vitamos (13 Jul 2011 às 14:54)

mesogeiakos disse:


> what do you mean?According to the simple mean method commonly used internationally, Athenian means surpass Seville in the summer for the comparable period.Do you want a breakdown?




SEVILHA (mean)	23.9	    27.4	27.2		
SEVILHA (max)	          31       35.3	  35

ATHENS (mean)	        24.7       27.2	  27		
ATHENS (max)	        31.1	     33.5	33.2

THISSIO (mean)	25.5	      27.8	27.7		
THISSIO (max)	        30.6	      33.1	32.8

TWo stations in Greece one in Sevilha... Mean and maximum temperature (The two discuted criteria to define a "hot place" (once again whatever that means)... Can you realy find here a significant diference... Can you find here any evidence that Athens is hotter than Sevilha... Realy i can't find and i'm only gathering data from 3 stations, and more than that I realy don't wanna know which is the hottest place. For me it's irrelevant!


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## vitamos (13 Jul 2011 às 14:55)

And more... Why should i consider Thissio station instead of Athens station?


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 16:04)

vitamos disse:


> And more... Why should i consider Thissio station instead of Athens station?




I am sorry I was laughing with this  Ok I understand you are Portuguese so please listen carefully now

First of all the ''Athens'' station is in N.Filadelfeia suburb in North Athens

while Thisio as I said is in the heart of Athens apart from the fact that as I have said it is the most historic and representative station of the city


Now in terms of *means*

SEVILHA (mean)	23.9	 27.4	27.2	=JJA mean = *26.17C*


NEA FILADELFEIA (mean) 24.7 27.2	 27	=JJA mean=*26.3C*


THISSIO (mean)	25.5	 27.95* 27.65 =JJA mean=* 27.03C*

Now focusing only on the directly comparable period of 1971-2000 we have

*Athens 27.03C mean summer temp
Seville 26.17C mean summer temp*

I am sure that you are aware that what makes an area warmer is the mean 24hour temperature.So either way Athens comes out warmer and in fact for the directly comparable period of 1971-2000 Athens is close to 1C warmer in summer means.Hope I helped you clarify now

*Btw your calculations Vitamos for July means for Thissio were wrong so I corrected them


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 16:23)

Btw you will not find a single WMO station in Europe that for the period 1971-2000 had higher summer means than the station of the National Observatory of Athens


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## AnDré (13 Jul 2011 às 17:21)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Btw you will not find a single WMO station in Europe that for the period 1971-2000 had higher summer means than the station of the National Observatory of Athens



*Average mean temperature in summer (JJA), 1971-2000.*

*>=27,1ºC*

Elche: 28,7ºC
Bailen: 28,2ºC
Cordoba (Miraflores): 28,0ºC
Alcolea de Tajo: 27,9ºC
Villatorres - Villargordo (Colegio): 27,3ºC
Los Gallardos: 27,1ºC
Santiago del Campo: 27,1ºC








Source: Iberian Climate Atlas


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## stormy (13 Jul 2011 às 18:00)

AnDré disse:


> *Average mean temperature in summer (JJA), 1971-2000.*
> 
> *>=27,1ºC*
> 
> ...



And do not forget that in most of Iberian peninsula, the warmest 3 month period is JAS, not the standard WMO summer JJA.


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 18:07)

AnDré disse:


> *Average mean temperature in summer (JJA), 1971-2000.*
> 
> *>=27,1ºC*
> 
> ...




From an Atlas and Non *WMO* stations obviously?

Could you please provide the WMO codes for those stations please?


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## Vince (13 Jul 2011 às 18:15)




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## stormy (13 Jul 2011 às 18:23)

mesogeiakos disse:


> From an Atlas and Non *WMO* stations obviously?
> 
> Could you please provide the WMO codes for those stations please?



WTF!!

So, you don´t think AEMET or IM are capable of having rigorous and credible measurements?
IM at least uses VAISALA weatherstations, respecting all WMO fields ( as every Met office must do)...

Well, if this is yourargument, then, why should i believe in Helenic met office anyway?

You are always manipulating the truth on your way, you choose the urban heat stations located in the middle of a 5milion inhabitants town and now you simply say that other countries scientific publications do not have credit...just unbelivably stupid and maniac attitude from you..


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 18:28)

Andre,are you referring to this Atlas here???


http://www.meteo.pt/resources.www/docs_pontuais/ocorrencias/2011/atlas_clima_iberico.pdf



Here are all the spanish data,can you direct me to those data you are quoting?They are not in this Atlas


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 18:30)

stormy disse:


> WTF!!
> 
> So, you don´t think AEMET or IM are capable of having rigorous and credible measurements?
> IM at least uses VAISALA weatherstations, respecting all WMO fields ( as every Met office must do)...
> ...




Ok,where in the Atlas are those data?See my post above


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 18:35)

Vince disse:


>



Thank you!


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 18:47)

stormy disse:


> And do not forget that in most of Iberian peninsula, the warmest 3 month period is JAS, not the standard WMO summer JJA.



This is also the case for areas of Greece as well


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## AnDré (13 Jul 2011 às 20:58)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Ok,where in the Atlas are those data?See my post above



*mesogeiakos*, look at this map (page number 35):

Climate network for air temperature in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands






*1503* stations.
In the Atlas book (pdf), you only have some of them.
But there's an Atlas CD edition with all data.







Data comes from Atlas CD edition. I extracted only the warmest mean temperature stations in JJA


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## mesogeiakos (13 Jul 2011 às 22:18)

AnDré disse:


> *mesogeiakos*, look at this map (page number 35):
> 
> Climate network for air temperature in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands
> 
> ...



Thank you!

With no WMO code I take it.I am familiar with those data from the Spanish forum,that is why I used my wording very carefully.Apart from that all those data are dubious,for example Elche has 17C annual mean in its main AEMET station and dont forget Elche is next to Alicante.Right?

Los Gallardos as well and so on.Maybe you should check the Rivas problem issue I am talking about in meteored foro for better understanding.Point being that my research suggests that apart from huge discrepancies within the same city (Elche) those stations are not a part of the WMO code scheme and I believe AEMET acknowledges that.Unless you can provide those WMO codes for me.Besides,all of those stations are now closed if I am not mistaken.Cheers!


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## Costa (14 Jul 2011 às 09:21)

There are many Portuguese regions not covered on that map, in contrast with the huge Spanish network unfortunally.


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## mesogeiakos (14 Jul 2011 às 16:52)

Costa I am also very curious about areas next to Amareleja means.I think someone in the past had posted some really interesting figures.Can u help?Which is the warmest area for JJA for Portugal do u think?


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## Ferreiro (15 Jul 2011 às 11:24)

Sempre é mais quente Sevilla que Atenas no verao. A temperatura media das máximas nao engana.
Inclusive pegando os dados de Atenas na sua estaçao meteorológica mais quente no seu verao mais quente, apenas teve um record de 36ºC em xulho e agosto.
36ºC nao é nada doutro mundo no vale do Guadalquivir, donde Sevilla-aeroporto tem um record de 38,5ºC em xulho de 1994, Cordoba-aeroporto 39,5ºC tambem en xulho de 1994, e Andujar nao tem dados publicados, mas sem dúvida supera os 40ºC.

A elevada temperatura media no verao de certas estaçaos de Atenas (nao todas) é pelas altas temperaturas minimas, o cal esta moi influido pela localizaçao das estaçaos dentro da cidade.


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## AnDré (15 Jul 2011 às 11:31)

Ferreiro disse:


> A elevada temperatura media no verao de certas estaçaos de Atenas (nao todas) é pelas altas temperaturas minimas, o cal esta moi influido pela localizaçao das estaçaos dentro da cidade.



Não nos podemos esquecer que Atenas é banhada pelo mar Egeu que nos meses de verão supera os 25ºC.
Esse será o factor determinante para as temperaturas mínimas elevadas.


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## mesogeiakos (15 Jul 2011 às 21:13)

AnDré disse:


> Não nos podemos esquecer que Atenas é banhada pelo mar Egeu que nos meses de verão supera os 25ºC.
> Esse será o factor determinante para as temperaturas mínimas elevadas.



This is not only a ''problem'' for Athens.If you look most of the South country you will see that the Aegean Islands rarely drop below 25C minimum during the summer due to the warming effect of the Aegean in retaining high minimums

On a different note it seems that July 2011 is becoming a really warm month for Athens and Greece,according to the models (gfs,european,etc) it seems that Greece is going to be in a prolonged heat situation.

Already the means for July are shooting.Here is how it stands between Attica and Andalusia,and look at the July means only...I have a feeling that if this situation continues then last August might be in reach in terms of achieving a similar mean...Megara already stands at 30.2C mean July temperature!!


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## Vince (16 Jul 2011 às 01:04)

mesogeiakos disse:


> With no WMO code I take it.I am familiar with those data from the Spanish forum,that is why I used my wording very carefully.Apart from that all those data are dubious,for example Elche has 17C annual mean in its main AEMET station and dont forget Elche is next to Alicante.Right?



You seem to talk a lot about Atenas-Thissio have a WMO code, but i would like to make a comparison betweet Seville and Thissio in the number of hot days (e.g. >30, >35,>40) and the problem is that i can't find daily data for Thissio anywhere. Do you know why?


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 01:40)

Vince disse:


> You seem to talk a lot about Atenas-Thissio have a WMO code, but i would like to make a comparison betweet Seville and Thissio in the number of hot days (e.g. >30, >35,>40) and the problem is that i can't find daily data for Thissio anywhere. Do you know why?



The WMO id for Thiseio is 16714.It is under the name Athinai Observatory.Furthermore I am focusing clearly on mean summer temperatures,which is off course what makes an area overall warmer

Unfortunately in order to get access to so detailed stats you will need to contact the N.O.A of Athens and pay for them.I got them for free as I am a research student,however the data are absolutely copyrighted so I can not publish them unless its for the purposes of an academic journal...I think the price for the general public is not prohibitory (around 30 euros) but the again with the limitation that you cannot publish them without the National Observatory of Athens consent.Try emailing them,they might give you the green light and it will also make my life easier in their distribution

I have the 1981-2010 means and let me tell you that Athens rocks!!  Dare I say,that we are seing means in the summer of over 29C? hehehe

Besides,you can find some limited of those stats from KNMI.Cheers


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## Vince (16 Jul 2011 às 02:15)

Averages give us valuable information about climate, right, but can also hide a lot. Average data always act as a filter, hiding extremes. And  for sure  I think that everyone should respect your opinion by using this  criteria, but you also have to accept and respect that it is quite debatable what criteria to use when we talk about what is hotter in summer.


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 02:24)

Vince disse:


> Averages give us valuable information about climate, right, but can also hide a lot. Average data always act as a filter, hiding extremes. And  for sure  I think that everyone should respect your opinion by using this  criteria, but you also have to accept and respect that it is quite debatable what criteria to use when we talk about what is hotter in summer.


 

Off course.I am just using two parameters of the data to support my hypothesis.One is the mean JJA temperature and the other the extreme official values of the Athens basin.Obviously there are other parameters to be taken into account on what makes an area hotter or not,it is just that I think it makes more sense to use the mean JJA data to reach a safer conclusion


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 02:42)

Also to come back to the topic I would like to ask our friends here a question,on what area you believe will be the first in Europe to hit an official 50C and if possible when??

My research suggest that the strongest candidates in Europe are the following

1.Athens basin
2. Murcia plains
3.Catania plains
4.Amareleja area
5.Guadalquivir valley


I am putting Athens first bsc of its official European record but I am open to some nice dialogue 


On a sidenote,please find below the HNMS forecast for the 20th of July when we expect the heat in Greece to be at its height.HNMS is giving a maximum of 43C for Elefsina in Athens and 43C in Lamia as well.Just see a noteworthy 33C! as minimum for Elefsina. If the scenario of NW catabatic foehn winds comes true then its sure that Elefsina will see extremes.Let's see how it pans out


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## Ferreiro (16 Jul 2011 às 11:19)

Previsión para Grecia que pode ser certa ou nao, ja veremos. En todo caso as ondas de calor (temperaturas superiores a 40ºC) em Grecia duram pelo habitual um ou dous días. Nao tem nada que ver com o sur da peninsula iberica donde podem durar varias semanas seguidas. De fato há ja 3 anos que Atenas-Elefsina ou Atenas-thisio nao logram alcançar os 40ºC, ja que em 2010 e 2009 nao o conseguiram. Ainda esta por ver si este ano o logram.

Inclusive num mes de julho relativamente fresco como temos este ano na peninsula iberica, temos temperaturas mais altas aquí. A media das maximas nao engana. Os dados dos primeiros 15 días de julho:

http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-mensual/2011-07/?order=t.tmed_max-DESC

A temperatura media das maximas em Andujar ja está em 37ºC e em Montoro (Cordoba) en 36,3ºC em que pese a um inicio de mes fresco, e será superior cando remate o mes. Nenhuma cidade grega chega a 36ºC pese a ter un mes de julho de 2011 quente por alí.

Acho que nunca sucedeu que una cidade grega teve em xulho ou agosto uma media das maximas por cima das cidades ibéricas. Isso é practicamente imposivel.


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## Ferreiro (16 Jul 2011 às 11:25)

Ademais temos os dados historicos de Sevilla-aeroporto e Cordoba-aeroporto:

http://www.aemet.es/es/elclima/datosclimatologicos/efemerides_extremos?o=5402&o=5783&m=7&v=TMMA


39,5ºC media das maximas num mes de julho é algo completamente impossivel para uma cidade grega. Nem de longe pode achegarse a isso.


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## Dan (16 Jul 2011 às 12:11)

AtlanticNorth disse:


> Bucareste é tão ou mais quente que Badajoz ou Beja por exemplo.



Média das máximas em Julho e Agosto:

Bucareste: 28,8ºC e 28,5ºC

Beja: 32,8ºC e 32,6ºC

Badajoz: 34,3ºC e 34,0ºC


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## Dan (16 Jul 2011 às 12:28)

AtlanticNorth disse:


> referia-me á temperatura media mensal e não á temperatura media da TMaxima... as diferenças penso que são de 2º graus ou seja Beja ligeiramente mais quente.
> 
> Beja-24º graus
> Bucareste-22º graus



Exacto, 22,2ºC para Bucareste e 24,3ºC para Beja, numa média simples. Sendo Julho o mês mais quente em Bucareste e Agosto em Beja.


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## Ferreiro (16 Jul 2011 às 12:43)

Isto nao é possivel em nenhum outro lugar de Europa, nem de longe.
Cordoba aeroporto verao do 2003. 17 días seguidos por cima de 40ºC.

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=084100-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2003&mes=08&day=16&ndays=31


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## Ferreiro (16 Jul 2011 às 14:02)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Also to come back to the topic I would like to ask our friends here a question,on what area you believe will be the first in Europe to hit an official 50C and if possible when??
> 
> My research suggest that the strongest candidates in Europe are the following
> 
> ...



Isto é típico de uma criança. 
É completamente absurdo. Nenhuma cidade europea pode alcançar 50ºC. 
Maior sentido sería apostar pela proxima cidade en chegar a 45ºC. Nao sei, mas acho que Atenas-Elefsina leva ja 3 anos sem tocar os 40ºC, impossivel tal coisa nos outros casos.


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## Amending (16 Jul 2011 às 14:40)

Ferreiro disse:


> Isto é típico de uma criança.
> É completamente absurdo. Nenhuma cidade europea pode alcançar 50ºC.
> Maior sentido sería apostar pela proxima cidade en chegar a 45ºC. Nao sei, mas acho que Atenas-Elefsina leva ja 3 anos sem tocar os 40ºC, impossivel tal coisa nos outros casos.



Perhaps you are underrating the temperature boosting power of urban heat islands, in particular the UHI of Athens that is very strong indeed in the summer. The city of Athens is characterized by it.

During August 2009, a temperature data-logger installed in Peristeri for a study about Athens' UHI recorded a montly average of tmax equal to 40.6°C


```
[FONT="Courier New"][B]Table 5. Mean max monthly and s.d. air temperature values for all stations (June, July and August).

Area                Station        June               July               August[/B]
Center of the city
                Athens Un.         33.9 ± 2.65        35.1 ± 2.95        31.9 ± 1.96

Northern part   N. Erythrea        30.8 ± 2.79        32.4 ± 3.16        31.4 ± 2.63
                Ano Liossia        31.6 ± 2.97        33.8 ± 2.92        32.0 ± 2.10
                Kamatero           33.6 ± 2.61        35.3 ± 3.10        32.1 ± 2.17
                N. Philadelphia    30.0 ± 2.35        32.6 ± 2.39        31.1 ± 1.52
                Maroussi           29.6 ± 2.47        32.0 ± 2.19        30.2 ± 1.48
                Mean               31.12 ± 2.980      33.23 ± 2.994      31.36 ± 2.114

Eastern part    Zografou          30.6 ± 2.54         32.4 ± 2.55        30.6 ±  ± 1.78
                Kessariani        32.4 ± 2.99         33.8 ± 2.90        31.5 ± 2.33
                Ilioupooli        32.0 ± 2.47         34.0 ± 2.69        31.5 ± 1.73
                Byronas           32.7 ± 2.79         35.1 ± 2.71        33.5 ± 2.05
                Agia Paraskevi    28.1 ± 1.84         31.0 ± 2.03        30.7 ± 1.47
                Mean              31.17 ± 3.027       33.25 ± 2.930      31.57 ± 2.146
  
Southern part   Glyfada           29.5 ± 2.67         32.8 ± 2.11        32.6 ± 1.29
                Renti             31.7 ± 3.82         35.9 ± 2.90        36.2 ± 1.82
                Elliniko          30.2 ± 3.57         34.6 ± 2.70        35.9 ± 1.58
                Kallithea         32.0 ± 3.61         35.0 ± 2.12        33.6 ± 1.63
                Mochato           32.9 ± 3.38         35.9 ± 1.85        34.5 ± 1.31
                Mean              31.27 ± 3.608       34.84 ± 2.606      34.57 ± 2.503

Western part    Korydallos        30.4 ± 2.41         33.1 ± 2.12        31.2 ± 1.58
                Agia Varvara      32.0 ± 2.76         34.2 ± 2.31        31.8 ± 1.79
                Haidari           33.1 ± 2.98         34.1 ± 2.55        33.0 ± 2.46
                Egaleo            31.1 ± 2.98         33.8 ± 2.35        32.5 ± 1.55
                Petroupoli        33.3 ± 3.25         36.9 ± 3.22        36.2 ± 1.89
                Peristeri         32.8 ± 2.62         [B]40.0[/B] ± 4.36        [B]40.6[/B] ± 4.37
                Ilion             32.3 ± 3.02         34.5 ± 2.50        34.2 ± 2.93
                Agioi Anargyroi   32.5 ± 3.23         36.1 ± 2.03        34.7 ± 2.67
                Zefyri            31.6 ± 3.38         35.3 ± 2.82        35.0 ± 1.37
                Mean             32.13 ± 3.065        35.33 ± 3.391      34.37 ± 3.618

(source: Giannopoulou et. al. (2011). On the characteristics of the summer urban
         heat island in Athens,Greece", Sustainable Cities and Society, 1(1) 16, 28.)[/FONT]
```

Perhaps some of these dataloggers installed inside urban Athens have already broken the wall of 50°C.

It seems also that HNMS has installed a series of further urban stations inside Athens (http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/observation/observation_region_html?&dr_region=ObsAttiki), so I believe that the 50°C+ are at hand.
Unfortunately they installed most new stations in places above al least some grass and with some meters surrounding lawn, so they will be slightly cooler than the dataloggers above, but I expect great things from them.


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## Ferreiro (16 Jul 2011 às 14:44)

E certo, Amending, ja uma estaçao de Atenas este verao marcou 50ºC .

O record de Italia, em estaçao oficial, é 48,5ºC em Catenanuova (Sicilia).


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## belem (16 Jul 2011 às 15:03)

Tendo em conta a disparidade desses valores em relação às outras estações, penso que esses 40,6ºc não são muito de fiar.
Penso que é preciso muito boa vontade, para acreditar nisso.
A não ser que a instalação seja mesmo muito deficiente, porque não existem microclimas em Atenas que justifiquem esses valores.


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## Amending (16 Jul 2011 às 15:39)

belem disse:


> Tendo em conta a disparidade desses valores em relação às outras estações, penso que esses 40,6ºc não são muito de fiar.
> Penso que é preciso muito boa vontade, para acreditar nisso.
> A não ser que a instalação seja mesmo muito deficiente, porque não existem microclimas em Atenas que justifiquem esses valores.



Sao datalogger urbanas, espalhadas na cidade, 
mas geralmente não são instalados em telhados como as estações de amador, mas, geralmente, a altura da estrada ou um pouco maior.
Pode ser que a mesma datalogger com 40 ° C havia em asfalto novo ou pórfiro de rocha vulcânica, material que aquecem tanto.


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## Ferreiro (16 Jul 2011 às 17:38)

Dan disse:


> Nessa onda de calor de 2003, Amareleja também registou 17 dias consecutivos com valores máximos superiores a 40ºC.



O mesmo aconteceu em Badajoz, 17 días consecutivos com valores máximos superiores a 40ºC.


http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?ind=08330&ano=2003&mes=8&day=16&hora=12&min=0&ndays=30

Qual é o record no vale do Danubio? Ficaría muito sorprendido se em esse vale atinguem 4 días consecutivos com maximas superiores a 40ºC.


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 21:27)

What you guys dont get about the dynamics of the summer climate of Attica is that the dynamic factor is its extreme geomorphology .Athens is not to be approached superficially in terms of its climate .I mean you can not do that in a peninsula surrounded by 5 mountains,countless hills and various distances from the sea. Each area reacts differently. Elefsina need NW or W winds to reach its extreme dynamics ,if you notice Hellenikon these days which is the ''weakest'' in terms of mean maxes in Athens it has been registering the highest values due to the Meltemi winds which in the south suburbs act as foehn giving the highest values of Athens due to their relationship with mountain Imitos while at the same time east Attica due to Meltemi winds can hardly see temps over 33C the past 10 days that the Meltemi winds are in their height in Athens


Leaving aside the creative statistics of junk stations in Athens we shall focus on WMO official stations that have the potential to hit the first 50C.Because if we look at totally junk stations such as Peristeri then I am surprised how we have not seen 55C+ yet


I mean the 40.6C mean max in Peristeri is a joke,apart from the fact that they placed the stations on purpose in the most central urban areas of Athens to capture the thermal differences in the summer,Peristeri station gives always readings that are totally unbelievable.I would accept those readings if it was a station not exposed to sun and properly meeting the WMO standards.I do not have a single doubt that Peristeri is among the warmest areas of Athens because of its proximity to Nea Filadelfeia but I would accept those value as long as those stations abide by the WMO standards.

Let us not kid ourselves here,Athens has *extremely complex microclimate* I study Athens summer climatology more than 15 years and each year I am surprised.With Meltemi (NE) winds we have the south suburbs due to Imitos registering huge values with the Foehn effects while traditional superpowers such as Elefsina and Nea Filadelfeia can hardly see temps close to 35C. Once the Meltemi winds stop then Hellenikon sees annoyingly low temps bsc of the sea breeze that do not exceed 32C while Elefsina with their relationship to the neighbouring mountains and the western winds sees temps that are honestly extreme.Nea Filadelfeia on the other hand shows a typical ''Andalusia'' behaviour.Consistently high maxes and extremely low minimums for Attica.In any case the microclimate of Athens,its geomorphology,the winds at each heat episode and off course the sea breeze are catalytic for Athenian summer climate

Just take a look at Megara well outside metro Athens and you will understand the ''pure'' behavior of Attica's summer climate


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## belem (16 Jul 2011 às 21:55)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Costa I am also very curious about areas next to Amareleja means.I think someone in the past had posted some really interesting figures.Can u help?Which is the warmest area for JJA for Portugal do u think?



Maybe it was me who posted it? Or JS? If it´s Herdade dos Lameirões, locally, that´s not that warm ( it´s placed in the plains area, not in the warmer lowlands). Though it´s figures sometimes can be interesting, but not more than that.
Unfortunately there´s no detailed data about the exact figures for the warmest areas during JJA for Portugal. Not even near.  Costa´s point was stating exactly this.
But in some warm areas ( not the warmest) and nearby there are some Spanish weather stations that gives interesting values ( from Northeast Douro, until the Southeast Guadiana).
For example, close to the Tagus valley, but further north and at higher altitude, climatological averages for the warmest month can be as high as 38ºc or a little more... How accurate is this value? Anyone knows?
I only know that the Tagus Valley, before the Alcantara big water body, reaches extremely high values, due to the IM article published in 2002 regarding the warmest areas in Portugal in JJA and because of the geographical features on the zone. If you want, I can place the maps here ( just for higher probabilities conclusions).
Though to confirm this at 100%, some weather measurings should be done in these areas.
These places have much more conditions, in my opinion, to get high averages, than any Amareleja or Herdade dos Lameirões. They are much more protected from weather variations. If we talk about Douro, this is even more evident. As you can see on the map that Costa posted, in the Douro area, you get places at very low altitude well inland and sheltered by several mountains groups. This explains it´s very low annual precipitation levels and high temperatures during the summer. I have been receiving some ocasional data from the Sabor ( because of fieldwork) and the values are pretty high, according to the season and more importantly, even when the country, presumably isn´t in a very warm period.
The Guadiana, has also nice warm places, but I´m not so sure about being the warmest in Portugal. This is due to the fact, that seems to be less sheltered than all the others, though this needs confirmation.
But it´s surely well warmer than Amareleja or Lameirões, at least, in some good extensions.
So we can identifly, at least, 3 major very warm areas during the summer ( Douro, Tagus and Guadiana valleys) and also a possible fourth region, that´s located in the Algarve, but inland, that´s called barrocal.
But this last one, has less chances than the other 3, I think.


Let´s remember that  sometimes we see a discrepancy between the warmest places on average and the ones which get the temperature records.
But even having this in mind, I doubt that the Amareleja is the place that has more conditions to get records. One thing is sure, Portugal has very scanty data... lol


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 22:09)

Thanks Belem,so focusing clearly on the mean JJA temps or which ever trimester is the warmest for Portugal which do you think is absolutely the strongest candidate in Portugal to be the ''warmest on average throughout the summer''?

Sorry to be so persistent but I would like an even more straight forward answer


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## belem (16 Jul 2011 às 22:12)

mesogeiakos disse:


> What you guys dont get about the dynamics of the summer climate of Attica is that the dynamic factor is its extreme geomorphology .Athens is not to be approached superficially in terms of its climate .I mean you can not do that in a peninsula surrounded by 5 mountains,countless hills and various distances from the sea. Each area reacts differently. Elefsina need NW or W winds to reach its extreme dynamics ,if you notice Hellenikon these days which is the ''weakest'' in terms of mean maxes in Athens it has been registering the highest values due to the Meltemi winds which in the south suburbs act as foehn giving the highest values of Athens due to their relationship with mountain Imitos while at the same time east Attica due to Meltemi winds can hardly see temps over 33C the past 10 days that the Meltemi winds are in their height in Athens
> 
> 
> Leaving aside the creative statistics of junk stations in Athens we shall focus on WMO official stations that have the potential to hit the first 50C.Because if we look at totally junk stations such as Peristeri then I am surprised how we have not seen 55C+ yet
> ...



Your post is very interesting.
Many thanks for your informations regarding the summer weather dynamics in Attica.
Now it´s much more clear for me, how things «work».


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## belem (16 Jul 2011 às 22:22)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Thanks Belem,so focusing clearly on the mean JJA temps or which ever trimester is the warmest for Portugal which do you think is absolutely the strongest candidate in Portugal to be the ''warmest on average throughout the summer''?
> 
> Sorry to be so persistent but I would like an even more straight forward answer



It´s impossible to give you an answer, by now.
Sorry... lol


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 22:27)

belem disse:


> It´s impossible to give you an answer, by now.
> Sorry... lol



Ok,I ll manage to make you ''talk'' some time soon I hope


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## belem (16 Jul 2011 às 22:30)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Ok,I ll manage to make you ''talk'' some time soon I hope



Let´s hope that I´ll have anything more to say! lool


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 22:49)

Belem,I order to explain in more detail what I was saying about the Northern Meltemi winds (NE or N) in the south suburbs,here are the temps of Hellenikon the past 10 days or so that Attica is being hit by Meltemi winds









Now look at those values and compare them to Elefsina,Nea Filadelfeia or let alone East Attica such as Spata airport.I mean Elefsina and Nea Filadelfeia were nowhere to be seen.Not to mention Spata airport in East Attica.I dont know if someone has been checking the differences between Hellenikon and the rest of Athens the past few days,but let me tell you the differences are huge.Now if you look the last couple of days the Meltemi winds are slightly easing,and guess what Elefsina and Nea Filadelfeia are starting to wake up.I think from tommorow onwards we will see a more balanced picture,with Hellenikon starting to show its typical stupid low maxes little by little as the Meltemi winds ease.

Spata and generally East Attica is at the mercy of Meltemi winds totally unsheltered from the Aegean.Just go to East Attica from the east side of mountain Imitos....you will believe that you are on holidays in Mykonos or Santorini  besides if you notice the HNMS forecasts each time we have Meltemi winds the forecast for East Attica is ALWAYS separately mentioned with the note of at least 3C to 5C lower values than the South suburbs of Athens.

It's not nuclear physics guys,its just that Athens has an extreme geomorphology


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## mesogeiakos (16 Jul 2011 às 23:55)

In fact we just had the data from HMNS for Attica for the 16th.

As expected,since little by little the Meltemi winds are dying the traditional powers are starting their usual behavior.

Nea Filadelfeia after almost 10 days dominates again and look at the extremely low minimum for Attica's standards!As always N.Filadelfeia shows this typical Andalusia like climate...Thank God they reopen the site with a new station in the Alsos of Nea Filadelfeia


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## mesogeiakos (17 Jul 2011 às 02:57)

Ferreiro disse:


> Sao dados puntuais, a persistencia do calor em esses paises nao se pode comparar com o sur da peninsula iberica. Somente o sur de Rusia (area do mar Caspio) pode ter alguma afinidade con o sur da iberica. Aparte algums dados sao dubidosos, como os 47ºC de Amendola ou mesmo os 48ºC de Elefsina e Tatoi, as duas estaçaos de atenas (esta ultima estaçao, Tatoi, tambem tem 48ºC, *é una estaçao que nunca sube de. 40ºC*)
> 
> Badajoz é muito mais quente que Bucarest.
> Badajoz oficialmente tem 25,7ºC de media em julho:
> http://www.aemet.es/es/elclima/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=4452&k=ext





The only place the European record is dubious is in the imagination of some of our friends

here you go!


http://wmo.asu.edu/europe-highest-temperature







As for Tatoi never having registered 40C please spare me.I mean where do u get ur data?From Tutiempo? I am surprised that your buddy Amending goes along with this fictional fairytale of Tatoi never reaching 40C.Ok I get it that you two have an ''issue'' with Athens but dont ridicule your self mate.I am hearing you without commenting repeating this fictional issue again and again,like for what?6 months?a year?Come on get over it now.Athens still remains warmer to Seville on average during the summer and whether u make up fairy tales or not changes nothing

http://kairikaarxeio.blogspot.com/

Anyway for our rest serious friends needless to say that 48.0C is the official European record registered in Athens in two areas on the 10th of July 1977


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## mesogeiakos (17 Jul 2011 às 07:35)

As an example of what I was saying here is also today's forecast for Attica from HNMS,as you can see East Attica is again given a lower temp forecast due to the winds ,while the west is given higher values specially bsc of the Western winds in Elefsina area and the relative absence of Meltemi winds in Athens basin


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## Amending (17 Jul 2011 às 08:44)

The stuff of the winds impacting eastern part of Athens more than western parts is mentioned also by

Giannopoulou et. al. (2011). On the characteristics of the summer urban heat island in Athens,Greece", Sustainable Cities and Society, 1(1) 16, 28.

Just these Authors specify the impact of these winds on Athens temperatures in a slightly different ways than our friend Thermonisidakos.   In fact they say that these winds sweep away and reduce the urban heat island in eastern parts of the greater Athens area. Then they add how western part is more industrialized and heated by thermal pollution.
So in short at the East there are more gardens, less dense urbanization, less industrial pollution and winds help in removing stagnant antropic heat. In western parts antropic heat is stronger and wind is weaker, so orography, and antropogenic heat and more scarce wind develop a magic mixture of UHI magnification.  
The explanation of Psematakos is good. The only missing concept in his discourses is urban heat island. He always babbles about heat climatology but he omits the elements revealing its nature of urban climatology, which are urban heat island, industrial heat island, and thermal pollution. The detail of how UHI concept hasn't yet become a part of his conceptual toolbox after 15 years of investigation is very very interesting.


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## Ferreiro (17 Jul 2011 às 09:58)

mesogeiakos disse:


> The only place the European record is dubious is in the imagination of some of our friends
> 
> here you go!
> 
> ...




Estaçaos da rede secundaria de AEMET também mediram temperaturas superiores a 48ºC no 2003. O problema que AEMET somente da información climática das estaçaos da rede principal, que sao basicamente as capitais de provincia. Mas há muitas pequenos locais donde se medirom mais de 48ºC em 1978 e em 2003:

http://foro.meteored.com/meteorolog...+los+datos+en+la+primera+pagina-t50415.0.html

Inclusive o teu enlace da Universidade de Arizona também o reconhece no ultimo parágrafo:
Unconfirmed reports also indicate that a set of Spanish stations may have hit 48.0°C during the 2003 heat wave.

Os 48.5º foram medidos por uma estaçao oficial do goberno regional de Sicilia. As redes de meteorología regionais nao formam parte da WMO, mas isso nao impide que os 48.5ºC sejan oficiais e correctos.

Mais dubidosos sao os 48.0º de Tatoi (Atenas).  A sua segunda temperatura mais elevada de sempre em Tatoi, acho se nao me lembro mal que é de somente ums 42ºC. Con isso ja digo todo. Temdo en conta esa escasa fiabilidade das temperaturas medidas em Atenas, tampouco confio nos 48.0ºC de Elefsina (Atenas).


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## mesogeiakos (17 Jul 2011 às 11:06)

I can also say in a forum that I can fly,now who believes me or not is another issue.Since obviously my flying abilities sometimes overtake Superman I tend to trust the official AEMET record for Spain.


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## mesogeiakos (17 Jul 2011 às 11:16)

Amending disse:


> The stuff of the winds impacting eastern part of Athens more than western parts is mentioned also by
> 
> Giannopoulou et. al. (2011). On the characteristics of the summer urban heat island in Athens,Greece", Sustainable Cities and Society, 1(1) 16, 28.
> 
> ...



I understand that our friend Amending has a limited understanding of the Greek climate,Athens basin (what it actually is basically) ,the geography of Attica and apart from overgeneralizing  a random quote from an article contributes nothing less than mambo jambo talk in order to bring up irrelevant issues to those discussed.

Now apart from the problems in Amending's cognitive skills to understand that I was reffering to the Mesogeia plain and not the Athens basin (hello Spata!) we see a constant tantrum filled with superficial knowledge of the area.Now I suggest to Amending,instead of playing hide and seek from his laptop trying to find a quote,a line or a comma to support his tantrums,to actually come and visit Athens

Now lets entertain our friend and ask him the quote word for word to see how different it is from what I actually said (provided the cognitive skills of our friend got what I was saying)

The main issue in Amending's narrative is an ongoing fixation with the warm climatology of the warmest area of Europe during the summer.His thesis always omit the climate change pattern seen in Greece and the dynamics of climate change as the main if not the only factor of Athens' constant heating the past decade,something which is thoroughly investigated by the Ministry of Climate Change in Greece (hello we do have a whole Ministry dedicated on this issue) and which suggests the main reasons for Athens reaching a potential 50C is the alarming news coming from the climate change of South Europe

It is obvious that our friend dreads the reality of constant warming in the whole of SE Med and it is very interesting the fact that he constantly omits to bring it up in his tantrum like Thesis.Point being that either way Athens and Attica has a unique dynamic in Europe during the summer which can not be easily surpassed by none in the continent


Btw currently N.Filadelfeia stands at 37C along with Kalamata from the HNMS stations.Will keep u update on the Athens heat!!


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## Ferreiro (17 Jul 2011 às 19:05)

Até o propio dr. Sarantopoulus, de nacionalidade grego, reconhece que um grupo de estaçaos espanholas chegaram (e superaram) a 48ºC.

As duas estaçaos gregas que chegaram exactamente a 48ºC foram Elefsina e Tatoi, esta última com uma segunda temperatura mais alta de sempre de somente 42ºC. Com isso quedam em dubida os dados gregos. Que ainda semdo certos tampouco son record de nada, ja que Catenanuova (Sicilia) tem 48.5ºC, bastante mais fiaveis que os 48ºC de Tatoi e Elefsina, e varias estaçaos espanholas da rede secundaria tambem por cima dos 48ºC.


http://wmo.asu.edu/europe-highest-temperature


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## Dan (17 Jul 2011 às 19:49)

O site referido ainda apresenta o valor de 57.8°C em  El Azizia, Libya como válido apesar de actualmente esse registo estar completamente desacreditado. Só para se ter uma ideia, o recorde actual dessa localidade (El Azizia, Libya), registado em condições correctas, é apenas de 48ºC.

O mesmo acontece com o valor de 56.7°C em Furnace Creek Ranch, CA, USA, também registado em condições deficientes.


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## Ferreiro (17 Jul 2011 às 23:07)

Dan disse:


> O site referido ainda apresenta o valor de 57.8°C em  El Azizia, Libya como válido apesar de actualmente esse registo estar completamente desacreditado. Só para se ter uma ideia, o recorde actual dessa localidade (El Azizia, Libya), registado em condições correctas, é apenas de 48ºC.
> 
> O mesmo acontece com o valor de 56.7°C em Furnace Creek Ranch, CA, USA, também registado em condições deficientes.



Correcto, esses registos sao reconhecidos pelo WMO, mas todo o mundo sabe que nao sao certos.


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## mesogeiakos (18 Jul 2011 às 00:56)

Dr Randy Chervenky is the head of the WMO research for the records and not a Greek scientist (I mean spare me now).In case you have a difficulty Ferreiro reading and comprehending the English language, the WMO has said officially that they will reconsider the world record but not the European which goes to Athens


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## mesogeiakos (18 Jul 2011 às 01:04)

As I have mentioned earlier I was expecting today at last the south suburbs of Athens to return to their normal temperatures and I was right.With the ease of the Meltemi winds Nea Filadelfeia rocked Attica with nearly 39C while the rest remaining much lower,even Elefsina due to absence of favourable conditions registered much lower.Sofades and Nea Filadelfeia had Greece's highest temperature for the 17th of July


Here are the data from HNMS


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## Ferreiro (18 Jul 2011 às 13:47)

Enquanto isso o grego tem que falar de uma previsao a 4 días para sonhar com os 40ºC em Grecia, ontem em Espanha, uma vez mais, em que pese a o verao fresco que temos até agora em gran parte da península ibérica, de novo mais de 40ºC.


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## J.S. (18 Jul 2011 às 17:53)

Ferreiro disse:


> Isto nao é possivel em nenhum outro lugar de Europa, nem de longe.
> Cordoba aeroporto verao do 2003. 17 días seguidos por cima de 40ºC.
> 
> http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=084100-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2003&mes=08&day=16&ndays=31



Well, if people just look precisely a year ago we can see that various studies have clearly identified a strong heat isle over Athens. These have been detailed studies, showing how the heat isle effect somtimes breaks up etc. I think you can see whn someone is fanatic as Mesogeiakos and seems to lend some personal status from it, it is understandable that he will refute these things also refutes other European hotspots in order to keep Athens where it needs to be for him: at the top for average temperature during the summer.

On the topic of the heat wave in 2003: note that the daytime maximum temperature in Amareleja was even higher than in Cordoba. They reached a staggering 43,4 C over that period (if I remember correctly). Only Cordoba and Amareleja got 17 consecutive days above 40,0 C.

Portuguese inland is on average not as warm as parts of the Guadalquivir region or Greece. The nighttime temperatures are way lower (probably because of very dry cicrumstances and may be some soil inlfuences ad well, I a m not sure).

I have looked at Moura station (Herdade dos Lamierões) and contacted the meteorologist of that station (Jorge Maia) and he confirms this is complying to all WMO norms, also when it comes to distances to obstacles. This station in summer (as far as I could check) has daytime maxima of 36-37 C in the last years and is somewhat warmer than Sevilla during the day and somewhat cooler  the warmest stations in the Guadalquivir region I could find (Ecija and Montoro). But we are talking about 0,5 C or so.

I have the data somewhere, but I am not getting in this debate again. 

From all I know, the warmest region during daytime are parts of he Guadiana and Guadalquivir region. on average it is still the Guadalquivir and at night it is of course the eastern mediterranean seaside. That is how I see it. In total, the Guadalquivir region is the warmest part of the Europe in summer.


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## J.S. (18 Jul 2011 às 18:00)

Ferreiro disse:


> Até o propio dr. Sarantopoulus, de nacionalidade grego, reconhece que um grupo de estaçaos espanholas chegaram (e superaram) a 48ºC.
> 
> As duas estaçaos gregas que chegaram exactamente a 48ºC foram Elefsina e Tatoi, esta última com uma segunda temperatura mais alta de sempre de somente 42ºC. Com isso quedam em dubida os dados gregos. Que ainda semdo certos tampouco son record de nada, ja que Catenanuova (Sicilia) tem 48.5ºC, bastante mais fiaveis que os 48ºC de Tatoi e Elefsina, e varias estaçaos espanholas da rede secundaria tambem por cima dos 48ºC.
> 
> ...



The Italian value is not recognised by the Italian Metoffice. It still is 45,6 if I am correct iN Catania.

The wamrest official ever in Europe recognised is the one of Elefsina. I have strong doubts, looking at the site being possibly near a large tarmac aerobase not unlike Sevilla (one station in Sevilla is completely useless, but still used as oficial BTW. I have seen the pictures: it is absurd).
I have also looked at some agro stations surrounding Sevilla and especially at night these show strong, strong diversions from Seviall Aeropuerto. I remember last year somehting like 24 C on average at the Airport but all surrounding stations just outside the city near 21,5 C....On average over july.


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## Ferreiro (18 Jul 2011 às 21:37)

J.S. disse:


> The Italian value is not recognised by the Italian Metoffice. It still is 45,6 if I am correct iN Catania.
> 
> The wamrest official ever in Europe recognised is the one of Elefsina. I have strong doubts, looking at the site being possibly near a large tarmac aerobase not unlike Sevilla (one station in Sevilla is completely useless, but still used as oficial BTW. I have seen the pictures: it is absurd).
> I have also looked at some agro stations surrounding Sevilla and especially at night these show strong, strong diversions from Seviall Aeropuerto. I remember last year somehting like 24 C on average at the Airport but all surrounding stations just outside the city near 21,5 C....On average over july.



I think Amending could talk a lot about Catenanuova. I'll wait for his answer.

In Seville area there are 3 official meteorological stations of AEMET: San Pablo Airport, Tablada and CMT. Difference between them is not so big. 
For instance, June 2011, average mininum temperature

CMT 19.7ºC
San Pablo 19.42ºC
Tablada 18.68ºC

http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-...d_min-DESC&label=temperaturas&Filtrar=Filtrar


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## mesogeiakos (18 Jul 2011 às 23:30)

J.S. disse:


> The Italian value is not recognised by the Italian Metoffice. It still is 45,6 if I am correct iN Catania.
> 
> The wamrest official ever in Europe recognised is the one of Elefsina. I have strong doubts, looking at the site being possibly near a large tarmac aerobase not unlike Sevilla (one station in Sevilla is completely useless, but still used as oficial BTW. I have seen the pictures: it is absurd).
> I have also looked at some agro stations surrounding Sevilla and especially at night these show strong, strong diversions from Seviall Aeropuerto. I remember last year somehting like 24 C on average at the Airport but all surrounding stations just outside the city near 21,5 C....On average over july.




Doubt by all means,point being that not only Elefsina but also Tatoi registered the 48C in 1977 and this is difficult to refute.I mean by all means try to discredit a similar value on two areas of Greater Athens on the same day in 1977.It would be interesting.

Point is that the research conducted by the WMO clearly indicates that the most credible record in Europe as we speak is the 48.0C of the Athens basin.


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## mesogeiakos (18 Jul 2011 às 23:43)

This is Attica today


Note again Nea Filadelfeia coming top but this time Hellenikon registered high values as well since later in the day the Meltemi winds started picking up and Nea Filadelfeia quickly had a dip while Hellenikon rose fast due to the foehn from Mountain Imitos.

As I said it is not rocket science to understand that the dynamics of Attica climate mainly depend from the complexity of the Athens basin,the extreme peninsular geography of Attica,the sea breeze and off course the Meltemi winds which in some areas act as cooling agent while in others it helps the foehn effect.

And do note the consistently low minima of the new Nea Filadelfeia HNMS station,totally in accordance with the old N.Filadelfeia station. For a moment there Amending was having a party bsc he believed that Nea Filadelfeia was closing down but the new station is now in the improved facilities of the Alsos of Nea Filadelfeia and it is already showing the extreme dynamic of the ''kamini tis Neas Filadelfeias'' as we say in Greek.Again today N.Filadelfeia had the highest temperature in Greece with 38.2 after the 38.8 in Serres,according to HNMS

As you can see,overgeneralizations in Attica are simply nonsense.If you do not have a good understanding of the Athens basin and how it behaves during  warm days then you will just freak out by trying to understand how different areas react so differently and out of norm.The dynamic factor guys is the complexity of the geomorphology of Attica.This is what need to be accounted for.I told you,we are talking about an area surrounded by 5 mountains,numerous hills,various killometric distance from the sea and different ways in which the winds affect the whole peninsula,we are not talking about a flat chested area like Seville ,which has a fairly predictable climatology outlook


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## Amending (19 Jul 2011 às 09:32)

J.S. disse:


> Well, if people just look precisely a year ago we can see that various studies have clearly identified a strong heat isle over Athens. These have been detailed studies, showing how the heat isle effect somtimes breaks up etc. I think you can see whn someone is fanatic as Mesogeiakos and seems to lend some personal status from it, it is understandable that he will refute these things also refutes other European hotspots in order to keep Athens where it needs to be for him: at the top for average temperature during the summer.



You are right. Research literature described with accuracy that Athens is characterized by a strong urban heat island effect, which reaches highest temperature differences compared to rural areas during summer, it described how it is distributed inside the city, where it is stronger and where it is weaker, how it reacts to other factors, how it interacts with orography, in which conditions it penetrates inside parks and archeological areas, how it can be moved entirely towards north-northest under the sea breeze effects involving semi-rural northern suburbs etcetera.
One of the better known sides of Athens climatology is the urban heat island. Athens climatology is urban climatology, and UHI is an important conceptual tool to understand it.

I remember a very interesting discussion here in Meteopt about the urban heat island of Athens, where one forum user named JS reported and commented some research literature excerpts, detecting with ease the clear evidences of UHI affection. Another forum user, named Mesogeiakos denied all, and volved to personal attacks and worthless insinuations against him soon, and especially said that there were no words for Elefsina that of course was totally unaffected by UHI for him.
In fact the academic article they were speaking about (Kassomenos and Katsoulis 2006) sais literally that Elefsina records higher temperatures than the urban centre of Athens because of heavy industrialization and thermal pollution over 70% of the days.  JS was right, and Mesogeiakos perjured scientific research. It is when I read this that I created the nikname Psematakos for him

However:
1) the UHI affection of Elefsina is underexplored
2) In my personal opinion Elefsina (like Athens) would be extremely warm even without UHI (but simulation studies where the urban effect may be removed from the territory do  not agree with me all the times)
3) because of (2), in my opinion the +48°C record of Elefsina is acceptable. I don't believe it is the most reliable highest temperature, but perhaps in that day Elefsina really reached 46-47°C, that inside a Stevenson shelter becomes 47-48°C with ease if for few minutes the wind slows down below 2-3 km/h. That value perhaps is OK. I am more skeptical with Tatoi, that with some wind direction gets involved in the UHI of Athens. But if we find that at the time of the record the wind was not slow and it was not S-SW, maybe also the 48°C in Tatoi is good.
Fortunately the deliberate misinformation about a fantastic 48,7°C in Athens that was disseminated throu the internet a few years ago does not appear anymore frequently. The lie assumed different forms and contents but in Greek wikipedia sometimes 48,7, sometimes 48,8°C periodically appears.


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## Amending (19 Jul 2011 às 09:58)

J.S. disse:


> The Italian value is not recognised by the Italian Metoffice. It still is 45,6 if I am correct iN Catania.



Italy has not (and has never had) a met office. We are 3rd world country in the political organization of meteorology.
When it was decided to create the WMO, the panorama was
1) lots of hydro-meteo stations, that were (most of them) intended for urban monitoring and hydrological purposes.
2) a few weather stations in airports, operated by military air forces (Aeronautica Militare, A.M.).
At that time the Government decided to join WMO and to assign to AM the task of representing Italy inside it. In my opinion this depends mainly on the fact that mils were embedded in networks of international relations, plus they had some experience of forecasting, plus perhaps some of them also spoke English. 

AM operates its small group of stations and some of the stations they use are not operated by them but by a company for the organization of civil aviation, named ENAV (total AM+ENAV about 110-120 stations), most in airports. AM handles and list only its own stations and the ENAV ones, that are the only Italian stations having a WMO Id (there is also a WMO station non-AM/non-ENAV, it is Rome-Collegio Romano, operated by UCEA, the typical old observatory without practical interest because of UHI affection and bad and unrepresentative location -urban station in the top of a tower- but antique and prestigious because of its history)
Next to AM, most if not all regions have developed their own network of weather stations and local forecasting service, with appreciable problems of standardization between regions. Most of the stations are excellent automated ones with full instrumentation complying WMO standards and installed and maintained according to WMO guidelines, but some are not and sometimes it is difficult to evaluate the reported values because when one emails to ask, the answer is not 100% sure.
In my opinion, most temperature values of Italian stations non-AM/non-ENAV are reliable given they were measured after 1991-1992, when most of meteo-wreckage manned stations with Stevenson shelter were swept away and replaced with WMO compliant suburban-rural automated stations with multiplates shelters. AM/ENAV stations are most of the times still manned with Stevenson shelter, so I am very prudent with them. It is former Soviet Union Republics-rank technology.

About Catenanuova, I am prudent about its +48,5. Some believe it 100% but I am more prudent about. At that time several other stations hit >=47°C and this seems to support that 48,5°C. The main problem is that the organization operating the station does not show any interest for records etcetera and is not publishing anything about. However there are the data pages, there are emails of Osservatorio delle Acque executives saying that the station was OK and the temperature is OK. I do not know what to say. These are the documented things. The statements that appeared in Wikipedia some months ago about a failed recognition by WMO because of noncompliance with WMO standards were lies (the editor was never able to present references for these statements he had invented), deliberate misinformation that was disseminated in order to discredit Catenanuova's +48,5°C.


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## Amending (19 Jul 2011 às 10:55)

mesogeiakos disse:


>



This table shows very interesting details.
Nea Filadelfia has not a lot of city upstream. So when slope breeze comes down after sunset, its UHI affection is limited (just a couple of degrees C, according to different studies, Kassomenos & Katsoulis seem to indicate about +1,5°C yearly average night-time UHI. Unfortunately they do not provide seasonal details, and then we do not know about the summer, when UHI gets really powerful in Athens).
Instead during the day the sea breeze impels the UHI overheated air of the city inside Nea Filadelfia park and produces strong tmax.
At the bottom of the table, we see instead Helliniko (automated). During the day the sea breeze come from the sea and so there is not much city to overheat it. But during night when breezes direction reverse, the land breeze comes from the city, it is overheated by the UHI, and so Helliniko records spectacularly high tmins.

Yeah, the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the power of Athens' UHI.

Thanks for sharing


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## belem (19 Jul 2011 às 14:49)

J.S. disse:


> Well, if people just look precisely a year ago we can see that various studies have clearly identified a strong heat isle over Athens. These have been detailed studies, showing how the heat isle effect somtimes breaks up etc. I think you can see whn someone is fanatic as Mesogeiakos and seems to lend some personal status from it, it is understandable that he will refute these things also refutes other European hotspots in order to keep Athens where it needs to be for him: at the top for average temperature during the summer.
> 
> On the topic of the heat wave in 2003: note that the daytime maximum temperature in Amareleja was even higher than in Cordoba. They reached a staggering 43,4 C over that period (if I remember correctly). Only Cordoba and Amareleja got 17 consecutive days above 40,0 C.
> 
> ...



Hi JS

Herdade dos Lameirões, is not placed on the Guadiana valley but more in the plains of Guadiana basin, so to compare it with Sevilla, that´s placed in the Guadalquivir valley can be a bit weird in my opinion. In front of Alcoutim ( not Martim Longo...), we got 18,8ºc of annual average, during a 25 years period. This is the closest to the Guadiana valley climatology that I got. And this was just in a random place, in fact there are places that have conditions to reach even higher temperatures, at least, during the summer.
Also the temperatures at night are lower in Lameirões than it is in the Guadiana valley, so of course that would be lower than in Guadalquivir.
And I persist to not forget about the hot spots in the East part of Tagus valley as well as in the Douro valley. These places can well have higher minima than many places in the Guadiana basin and good maxima during the day.
Did you had a look on the summer daily maxima averages that it were measured in the Caceres region, close to the Portuguese border? And this is was measured in the plains, not in the valley. 
It´s so high that I  wonder , about the veracity of this data...
If you want to continue the debate, I would say to use this thread:

http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/local-mais-quente-de-portugal-50-c-possivel-1425-29.html


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## J.S. (19 Jul 2011 às 23:41)

Well may be if there are so many "if's", "perhaps'", "may be's" etc it is better not to cite any record as certain...

The Italian Weatherservice seems to be quite dreadfull. My sister lives in Varese and I was there recently (and will be there many times more, MIlano also) commented on the lacklustre performance. Not sure but it is a bit sad.

Italia is btw very similar to Portugal I feel. People, way of living...felt right at home. Too bad the weather seems to be of the humid warm kind unlike Portugal...That was a big bummer! But I liked it very very much! Nice  kind people and Italian is very easy to understand...had no problem talking with the people and I understood not to talk Portuguese with everything said within the mouth so no Spanish or Italian can understand. I spoke more staccato and Italian whenever I knew the word and everyhting went just fine. Only the food I ordered, the cloths I bought and the roads I was directed too were completely wrong, but other than that... 

Regards!




Amending disse:


> Italy has not (and has never had) a met office. We are 3rd world country in the political organization of meteorology.
> When it was decided to create the WMO, the panorama was
> 1) lots of hydro-meteo stations, that were (most of them) intended for urban monitoring and hydrological purposes.
> 2) a few weather stations in airports, operated by military air forces (Aeronautica Militare, A.M.).
> ...


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## J.S. (19 Jul 2011 às 23:48)

belem disse:


> Hi JS
> 
> Herdade dos Lameirões, is not placed on the Guadiana valley but more in the plains of Guadiana basin, so to compare it with Sevilla, that´s placed in the Guadalquivir valley can be a bit weird in my opinion. In front of Alcoutim ( not Martim Longo...), we got 18,8ºc of annual average, during a 25 years period. This is the closest to the Guadiana valley climatology that I got. And this was just in a random place, in fact there are places that have conditions to reach even higher temperatures, at least, during the summer.
> Also the temperatures at night are lower in Lameirões than it is in the Guadiana valley, so of course that would be lower than in Guadalquivir.
> ...



Well we have been over this many times. Alcoutim is, like Sevilla, frequently influenced by seabreezes. Therefor they are not as warm as more inland regions despite lower elevations. Herdade dos Lameirões has in fact data. Ancient measurements of Moura show similar temperatures (at 90 m altitude BTW). We have no measurements of other places so that is simply guessing. Caceres seems to have nice inland rivers that are at 200-250 m but I am aware of an Atlas that calculates data. I am aware of measurements that are clearly faulty of some station in Extremadura. Simply looking at some averages highs and wintertemperatures indicates time and time again the station are prone to insolation. Therefor I discount these stations on the basis of logic.

What we do know for sure is that Herdade dos Lameirões is a bit warmer at day than Sevilla in summer and a bit cooler than the hottest places in the Guadalquivir region (at day). Other things? A big guessing game. 

I have also looked up as many stations as possible in Spain and Portugal (pictures) and the maintenance is awful. really: if you want to measure correctly make sure you do so. And not like in Sevilla where the weatherstation is 5 m in front of a building and next to a parking lot. Or in Portugal, where in Alvega for instance the grass has not been cut for 10 years....I mean: science has shown you introduce huge errors most of all in record like situations....


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## J.S. (19 Jul 2011 às 23:57)

Ferreiro disse:


> I think Amending could talk a lot about Catenanuova. I'll wait for his answer.
> 
> In Seville area there are 3 official meteorological stations of AEMET: San Pablo Airport, Tablada and CMT. Difference between them is not so big.
> For instance, June 2011, average mininum temperature
> ...



These are all at aiports in or near the city. I know of quite some airports having higher temperatures than other stations nearby. 

I have compared in the last summer with several agrometeorological stations as I said before and these were low lying pcitures of them showed them to be in the open and well they were a lot cooler. However: during the day this difference was much smaller, partly because most of the stations were NE of Sevilla and a bit further away from the sea (10 km or so, but still)...

Sevilla is not in a position to be as warm as it seems because its proximity to the sea compared and the open countryside that does not block at thing.
If you look at station just south of the city it is amazing how much cooler it gets. Average daytime temperatures are 32 or 33 C instead 35-36. While out in the open, north of the city it does not get any warmer than 35 C or so.
That is what I remember, can look it up...Sevilla stations are anomalous and I seriously doubt they are measuring the climate, they measure it but with a city or other local influence in my view.


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## Vince (20 Jul 2011 às 00:30)

Last year I start thinking myself that perhaps not only the discussion of 50ºC in Europe maybe  is  an absurd as I think that maybe a series of "official" records in the range of > 45 in Europe to date are of little value  because they were almost all obtained under questionable circumstances. Today, with everything I know I even suspect about our official value ​​of Amareleja in 2003. By the way, my suspicion comes from things I have read and learn from J.S in the last years, a respectable member on my trusted users list. 
Seriously measuring  temperatures is a thing more difficult than it looks at first glance and I think that it would be far more interesting for everyone here to have a critical and independent mind on this subjects, certainly better than these endless "flame wars" discussions about what is hotter.


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## mesogeiakos (20 Jul 2011 às 03:42)

Oh yiah Vince,its not a task for the faint hearted.

Leaving aside the cyclic discussion of the narrative/thesis of Athens being world champion in oddities,here are the today data from HNMS.

Also let me note that the overgeneralization of a general quote on Elefsina says nothing on the actual dynamics of any perceived uhi and what not as there is no such study specifically for Elefsina airport station.Obviously Elefsina's dynamic is huge when the foehn effect is in full swing.We have witnessed this time and time again.I should keep on stressing that it is the geomorphology of the area in combination to numerous natural factors that create this explosive conditions for an area next to the sea!

Now here are the data for the 19th and guess what,even stranger stuff occuring.I mean Amending will have to change his narrative time and time again to get Attica 

Nea Filadelfeia recorded again the highest max in Attica from the NEW station with a 39.3 surpassed at a national level yesterday only by Sofades (40.5) and Serres (40.2)

And lastly spare me on the hints of the invented value of 48.7 from Tatoi.I mean get a grip alredy,I remove it one day from wiki and the next it reappears.Get your facts straight Amending and rid us please of this fixation that I am the mother of all evil of Greece's warm climatology


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## mesogeiakos (20 Jul 2011 às 03:49)

Here also the data on the brief experiment we are undertaking in terms of comparative climatology between the data from Attica and Andalusia

The data in the UK forum start from the 1st of June and data collection will be finishing on the 31st of August.At the bottom we see compelling data for July only means in favor of Attica and according to the models the situation is not improving much in Greece apart from a shortlived temp drop on Thursday and Friday


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## mesogeiakos (20 Jul 2011 às 04:31)

Amending disse:


> About Catenanuova, I am prudent about its +48,5. Some believe it 100% but I am more prudent about. At that time several other stations hit >=47°C and this seems to support that 48,5°C. The main problem is that the organization operating the station does not show any interest for records etcetera and is not publishing anything about. However there are the data pages, there are emails of Osservatorio delle Acque executives saying that the station was OK and the temperature is OK. I do not know what to say. These are the documented things. The statements that appeared in Wikipedia some months ago about a failed recognition by WMO because of noncompliance with WMO standards were lies (the editor was never able to present references for these statements he had invented), deliberate misinformation that was disseminated in order to discredit Catenanuova's +48,5°C.



In case your ''editor'' reference refers to me (which it does but hey) I have given the name of the AM officer who got back to me.The officer has not contested it and please deal your internal Italian issues with them and not me.

It is obvious that when the official European record that currently holds for Athens was found in a position to compete with non official values of unknown stations to AM then I would act swiftly.There is little chance that I would not react and I will do it again if circumstances arise,you can count on this.

Good thing is that the answer came back from AM and now we have a clear understanding of why we are talking about a non valid and non official record within Italian territory much less in the international arena.


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## J.S. (20 Jul 2011 às 10:57)

Vince disse:


> Last year I start thinking myself that perhaps not only the discussion of 50ºC in Europe maybe  is  an absurd as I think that maybe a series of "official" records in the range of > 45 in Europe to date are of little value  because they were almost all obtained under questionable circumstances. Today, with everything I know I even suspect about our official value ​​of Amareleja in 2003. By the way, my suspicion comes from things I have read and learn from J.S in the last years, a respectable member on my trusted users list.
> Seriously measuring  temperatures is a thing more difficult than it looks at first glance and I think that it would be far more interesting for everyone here to have a critical and independent mind on this subjects, certainly better than these endless "flame wars" discussions about what is hotter.



Amareleja: me too. Look at the site: it is surrounded by pine trees. The radiationscreen (well, they have two) is in the shade of those trees at 18 h in the spring (when the picture was taken by a member here). It is absurd.
The only thing that keeps me from totally discarding this station is the fact that nearby Heradade dos Lameirões station (20 km to the south, same altitude) is in fact showing identical values and with that station I am 100% sure it measures correctly. I have said more than once why it is. So in the averages we do not see large differences between Amareleja and H dos L. But this does not mean that extrema are therefor correct or not influenced as extrema are rare and the situations are rare. Suffice to say that a stable column of air warms up and cools down rapidly and trees are a perfect way to get a localised stable column of air...

I believe money is a problem for good maintenance of the stations throughout Southern Europe but having connections with these people, also in doing business with them and having worked with them, my sister living in Italy etc I know the attitude is a problem also. It all boils down to doing things like you were told, like we ageed upon and keeping promises. In NL, DK, Germany and Sweden you are to keep your promises and appointments. You do not change them unilateraly (If you say: I'll be there at 13.00h you better be there). Another pint is that it does not matter as mcuh if you are a CEO or a coworker. The CEO of the 3000 people company I work with did not treat my email right which got me in a bit of trouble. I went to his office, told him to come to my office after he was finished with his talk. He came to my desk, heard my complaint about his conduct. Agreed, apologised and promised me to set things straight (and he did). So we keep eachother sharp and do things like we promised. Whether it is our conduct, the way we treat emails or how many times per year we mow the grass at a weatherstation. Co wokrer, mamanger or CEO...it matters everstill, but far less than in other places. Note that this is a generalisation but you get what I am saying. 

I have asked many times before if someone could help me to setup some stations with dataloggers in order to get a good indication of the heat in Portugal, given the lack of weatherstations in interesting places. Again: I am willing to do this but I need your help!


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## Ferreiro (20 Jul 2011 às 16:30)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Also to come back to the topic I would like to ask our friends here a question,on what area you believe will be the first in Europe to hit an official 50C and if possible when??
> 
> My research suggest that the strongest candidates in Europe are the following
> 
> ...



Tal como eu achei ao final nada de nada em Atenas-Elefsina. A previsao era de 33ºC de minima e 43ºC de maxima para hoje día 20 de julho, finalmente foi 25ºC de mínima e 36ºC de maxima. Agora ja está baixando a temperatura em Atenas.

Ja 3 anos há que Atenas-Elefsina nao chega a 40ºC. O grego sonha com chegar a 50ºC, a realidade é que poucas vezes chega a 40ºC.


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## mesogeiakos (20 Jul 2011 às 23:53)

Highest temps for yesterday in Attica with 39.5 in N.Filadelfeia


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## Amending (21 Jul 2011 às 08:02)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Highest temps for yesterday in Attica with 39.5 in N.Filadelfeia



Have you got any information about the Hellinikon automated station?
There are often appreciable differences from the two Hellinikon in HNMS outputs. I believe they are not in the same place.
The radiation shield can cause even huge differences in tmax with slow wind and strong solar radiation (up to 2-2,5°C between Stevenson shelters and good fan aspirated screens), but there we often see appreciable differences also in tmin, and there the shield changes little. In my opinion these stations are not side by side, the differences between them are too large for being simple differences due to measurement technique; there must be at least some hundreds of meters between them.


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## Amending (21 Jul 2011 às 08:17)

J.S. disse:


> I have asked many times before if someone could help me to setup some stations with dataloggers in order to get a good indication of the heat in Portugal, given the lack of weatherstations in interesting places. Again: I am willing to do this but I need your help!



Saint Now! 

Oh, great. One who has interest for a specific location and plans to place a datalogger there. Great.
Yesterday I was considering this http://cgi.ebay.it/YOUNG-MULTI-PLAT...468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2565bc1b14 for some monitoring I am planning (see below), but I fear that most of dataloggers I have at hand now (Omega OM-63) would not fit inside it. The iButtons would, but I cant travel all the time every 42 days to download the data. 

Btw, about Italian meteorological service quality, watch here the WMO station 16020 - Bolzano/Bozen airport (LIPB). 

http://www.facebook.com/notes/wette...ozen-krankenhaus-vs-flughafen/252875524727894

The reportage was published by the Hydrographic Office of the province of Bolzano, that noticed surprising and increasing differences between their station located at the hospital and the AM station located at the airport.
I am asking them to publish pictures taken from few meters distance to prove that the WMO station is really among the solar panels, satellite images are not detailed enough.
If it is demonstrated that the station is really there next to local sources of heat that interact with solar radiation, we can rename it from LIPB to LGPB  
However I'd like to place a couple of dataloggers near Bolzano in order to assess how mean temperatures really are there, as all the stations there are urban or questionable due to close buildings, asphalt, or that stuff among solar panels we see in the Wetter in Sudtirol facebook group.


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## Amending (21 Jul 2011 às 08:46)

By the way, I believe it is better to show why I believe that the location in that absurd place of the 16020 station is realistic. Watch below the montly averages of it (last line, gray background) and the rural reference station, BZ-Laimburg, which is an agroclimatic about 10 km south from Bolzano in the country.






(it is an intercomparison between integration method averages of stations located near the coolest Italian towns, the final object of interest is the yearly average temperature. It seem that this year L'Aquila (AQ) will be the coolest. From 1992 to 2010, based on available measured data, it was always Belluno (BL) with a couple of draws with Cuneo, Aosta and Biella).


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## Amending (21 Jul 2011 às 09:33)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Get your facts straight Amending and rid us please of this fixation that *I am the mother of all evil* of Greece's warm climatology



I need an advice in Greek. How could this be fixed in a nickname?
-Kolasiakos?
-Diavolosakos?
-Antichristakos?

 I am just kidding of course


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## Amending (21 Jul 2011 às 10:41)

Ferreiro disse:


> Tal como eu achei ao final nada de nada em Atenas-Elefsina. A previsao era de 33ºC de minima e 43ºC de maxima para hoje día 20 de julho, finalmente foi 25ºC de mínima e 36ºC de maxima. Agora ja está baixando a temperatura em Atenas.
> 
> Ja 3 anos há que Atenas-Elefsina nao chega a 40ºC. O grego sonha com chegar a 50ºC, a realidade é que poucas vezes chega a 40ºC.



Estes são o máximo da Sicília em 19 de Julho (ainda não disponível a partir de 20)
Sicília tem mantido que a Grécia havia prometido






Quase todas as estações agro-meteorológicas, apenas alguns urbana, mas há dúvidas sobre a estação Campofranco.


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## J.S. (21 Jul 2011 às 12:02)

Amending disse:


> Saint Now!
> 
> Oh, great. One who has interest for a specific location and plans to place a datalogger there. Great.
> Yesterday I was considering this http://cgi.ebay.it/YOUNG-MULTI-PLAT...468?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2565bc1b14 for some monitoring I am planning (see below), but I fear that most of dataloggers I have at hand now (Omega OM-63) would not fit inside it. The iButtons would, but I cant travel all the time every 42 days to download the data.
> ...



I use Tinytag dataloggers, only for temperature. It records minimum, max and av temp over the interval. 10000 K of data . I fyou set a 1 hourinterval, it will be okey for years....It is calibrated but really it is not necessary because all those loggers (I have had acouple of them now) are all within 0,1 K from the factory....But I have it with calibration certificate. Perfect. You can use a couiple of sensors for it, also small ones. 

Good luck!


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## Amending (21 Jul 2011 às 12:43)

J.S. disse:


> I use Tinytag dataloggers, only for temperature. It records minimum, max and av temp over the interval. 10000 K of data . I fyou set a 1 hourinterval, it will be okey for years....It is calibrated but really it is not necessary because all those loggers (I have had acouple of them now) are all within 0,1 K from the factory....But I have it with calibration certificate. Perfect. You can use a couiple of sensors for it, also small ones.
> 
> Good luck!



Tinytag? Never heard before.
In Italy the most common dataloggers I read in weather forums are the Oneset Hobo (for 15 minutes logging in alpine dolines), Omega OM-63 (same use), for the most powerful doline some Cryotemp (that can measure down to -90°C) are used, some other one use the Maxim iButtons, but I have never read about Tinytag. Have you got any URL to learn about them please?

However I would set them to 15 min or less; for integration mean there is little difference, but I see appreciable differences between 32seconds, 5 minutes, 15 minutes and 1 hour extremes. I believe 5 minutes is better.
By the way some Italian regional organization is switching to hourly averages, that unfortunately are difficult, memory- and computation-intensive stuff which is not easy to do with dataloggers.


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## Ferreiro (21 Jul 2011 às 13:31)

HNMS (the Greek MetOffice) has released its Climatic Bulletin of June 2011:
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_html





The red box shows the average maximum temperature (the blue box, average minimum):
Elefsina  30ºC (Seville airport 34.23ºC. So big difference!!!)
Tatoi 27.7ºC
Helliniko 29ºC
Spata (airport of Athens) 27.1ºC

The average temperature of the month calculated according to the formula
 (maximum + minimum) / 2 was as follows:

Elefsina 24.9ºC (Seville airport 26.85ºC)
Helleniko 23.8ºC
Tatoi 22.6ºC
Spata (airport of Athens) 21.85ºC

Remarkable is the enormous difference in temperature between urban stations and airport station (non urban). In fact, the airport of Seville took advantage in 5ºC at the Athens airport, which is an awesome difference.


Data of Seville and the rest of spanish weather stations in june 2011:
http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-mensual/2011-06/?order=t.tmed-DESC


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## Amending (21 Jul 2011 às 14:51)

Ferreiro disse:


> HNMS (the Greek MetOffice) has released its Climatic Bulletin of June 2011:
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_html
> 
> The red box shows the average maximum temperature (the blue box, average minimum):
> ...




Comparing the montly averages for June 2011 between Sevilla and some selected Greek stations, using the Greek HNMS computation formula for daily mean is even more interesting:

Sevilla S.Pablo *28,8°C* (26,7°C integration of 10 minutes samples - - >+2,1°C "Greek formula bias")
Elefsina 25,9°C
Larissa 25,6°C
Helliniko 25,4°C
Tanagra 25,0°C
Tatoi 23,9°C
Spata 22,8°C

So we understand why historical summer Greek means are so high. 

Simply, the HNMS mean computation formula produces an incredible overestimation of integration averages compared to (tmin+tmax)/2 and integration mean. And this bias for Andalucia stations is even larger than for Attica stations (perhaps because there are two samples close to tmax and Andalusia tmax are far hotter than Attica ones). Some time ago our dear Greek friend said that the Greek method is more scientific. I would like to know if now that s/he knows that using it Sevilla gets a couple of degrees celsius warmer than athenian stations s/he still thinks so. 

In the averages computed using that formula, we can change °C (degrees celsius) to °B (degrees biased). 

By the way, days ago I did a quick comparison between Sevilla S.Pablo and some agroclimatic stations in the surrounding areas. Perhaps it is better to treat S.Pablo with caution. There is something strange. 

Instead I would like to tribute to Larissa  an honour mention. Our dear Greek friend is not telling that to us, perhaps because Larissa is not in Attica, but we see that with its 30,7°C average tmax for June, Larissa knocks out the Athenian stations. It is well known, in fact, that Larissa hits 44°C more easily and more often than Elefsina. It is a hotter place.


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## J.S. (21 Jul 2011 às 18:08)

Amending disse:


> Comparing the montly averages for June 2011 between Sevilla and some selected Greek stations, using the Greek HNMS computation formula for daily mean is even more interesting:
> 
> Sevilla S.Pablo *28,8°C* (26,7°C integration of 10 minutes samples - - >+2,1°C "Greek formula bias")
> Elefsina 25,9°C
> ...



Exactly what I wrote last : Sevila is fishy (look at a picture and you soon understand why exactly). And Lamia and Larissa are warmer (of course) than Athens because they are low lying in a basin somewhat away from the sea...


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## Ferreiro (21 Jul 2011 às 20:42)

However, Lamia has a absolute maximum of only 46.5°C (45.2ºC in Larissa), versus 48ºC in Athens-Elefsina and Athens-Tatoi.

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Lamia
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Larisa

Personally I think the real greek record is 46.5ºC in Lamia. In the future, 48ºC ​​of Athens will be considered the same as 56ºC in Libya, a fraud.


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## J.S. (21 Jul 2011 às 21:52)

Ferreiro disse:


> However, Lamia has a absolute maximum of only 46.5°C (45.2ºC in Larissa), versus 48ºC in Athens-Elefsina and Athens-Tatoi.
> 
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Lamia
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Larisa
> ...



May be and may be not. If the Greek Meteorological Institute to be trusted like Greece keeps it books, it spells a lot of frauds...But their military airports seem heavily protected and I only found a few pics on the net of Elefsina airport. And not where the abrigo is situated nor what it looks like...


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## mesogeiakos (22 Jul 2011 às 05:58)

Come on guys,enough with tantrums all over.First June was a colder month in Greece than in Spain.Secondly only recently we have the Nea Filadelfeia data from HNMS bsc until today we had Nea Filadelfeia off for almost a year and finally Amending again you have not being doing your homework.Did we get the Thiseio means for June?Nah!So wait to get those and see if Thiseio is again higher than Larisa.Meanwhile our Italiano friend knows that Thiseio means come out later than HNMS ones

As for J.S I mean come on dear friend.Apart from the cheap comment of Greece's poor book keeping I am not seeing Portugal being a heaven of fiscal reforms and excellent book-keeping.Last time I checked Greece,Portugal and Ireland are in the same boat so spare me your comments of national antagonism.Τhe cheapness of that very comment and in fact its use as an argument(!) is beyond me honestly.Spare me dude!

Now unfortunately we have data from Nea Filadelfeia from 12th of July onwards and off course Larisa is as usual second best.In fact J.S probably forgot that according to the *50years data* from HNMS Nea Filadelfeia has the highest mean max in the country for JJA (I mean come on J.S I am surprised with your poor memory).

Enjoy Attica's reign 






Meanwhile Nea Filadelfeia yesterday had Greece's highest temp with 36.8C






And dont forget the integrated stats from June 1st between Attica and Andalusia.For the entirety of summer so far Attica in the top spots as usual








Meanwhile the station on the look out for July should be *Serres.* as the heat wave has affected central Macedonia much more than it has the rest of the country from the day the heat episode started! Probably the highest mean max in the  country from HNMS for July 2011.Btw Serres is my birthplace


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## mesogeiakos (22 Jul 2011 às 06:05)

Ferreiro disse:


> However, Lamia has a absolute maximum of only 46.5°C (45.2ºC in Larissa), versus 48ºC in Athens-Elefsina and Athens-Tatoi.
> 
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Lamia
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Larisa
> ...



In Greek a smart proverb for this post would be '' Ο καθένας με τον πόνο του ''


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## mesogeiakos (22 Jul 2011 às 06:57)

Here is a nice one from Greece's biggest blog


http://tro-ma-ktiko.blogspot.com/2011/07/40_21.html
Πέμπτη, 21 Ιουλίου 2011
*40 βαθμοί χθες στην Νέα Φιλαδέλφεια*


> 39.5 βαθμούς κατέγραψε ο σταθμός της ΕΜΥ χθες στο Άλσος της Νέας Φιλαδέλφειας, φέρνοντας έτσι... την κορύφωση του χθεσινού καύσωνα για την Αθήνα.
> 
> Σύμφωνα με την Εθνική Μετεωρολογική Υπηρεσία η υψηλότερη τιμή στην Αττική σημειώθηκε στην Νέα Φιλαδέλφεια, ενώ το αεροδρόμιο Ελευθέριος Βενιζέλος κατέγραψε 38.4 βαθμούς. Η υψηλότερη τιμή στην Ελλάδα σημειώθηκε στην Λαμία και Λάρισα με 40.8 βαθμούς. Από σήμερα αναμένεται πτώση της θερμοκρασίας κατά 3 με 4 βαθμούς
> 
> ...


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## mesogeiakos (22 Jul 2011 às 07:13)

And here is Ian's quality work as always from the UKww forum

The updated figures from the 1st of June till 21st July inclusive with Attica on the top spot yet this summer

You have to give credit to Ian Williams though.His persistence and dedication to this is remarkable and he is not a Greek or Spanish national.Way to go Ian


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## Amending (22 Jul 2011 às 10:29)

mesogeiakos disse:


>


Yeah, no doubt that the strong UHI that characterizes Athens makes some difference with these conditions. Larissa has an airport station, the city is not huge, its UHI can reach the airport only with given wind directions; while Filadelfia is sourrounded by the city and it will be involved by UHI under most wind directions. It would be very interesting to see a comparison between Larissa and Nea Filaldefia without the UHI-boost of Athens, a thing that is impossible with contemporary data and will not be possible very soon. Santamouris & collegues are proposing lots of countermeasures to face UHI but it takes time to apply them.
Somewhere I have a WMO stations database with 1961-1990 means for a lot of stations (over 900 stations), and Larissa is one of them. But I fear there is not Nea Filadelfia. In 1961-1990 perhaps the UHI of Athens il less intense than now; it seems that it exploded and became tremendous as it is now only in the second half of 80s.

If you are still in Athens, could you do a couple of photoreportage please?
We are quite interested in the pictures of Thiseio and the new Nea Filadelfia sites.
About Thiseio, I have already seen pictures and there is nothing to hide. It is better than most of old Italian Hydrographic stations like those in the database I sent you last year. It has about 8-11 meters range of lawn around, so it is reasonable. About Nea Filadelfia, the interest is in the trees sourrounding it. If they cut some and created a large surface of only grass, this would impact the sky view factor of the station (decreasing tmins) but also it would reduce shadowing, increasing tmax. The meteogr reportage suggest that in late 2009 the station was shadowed by trees.
Instead I believe it is not safe to try to take pictures of Elefsina: the probability of suffering a gunshot is high


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## Amending (22 Jul 2011 às 11:16)

J.S. disse:


> Exactly what I wrote last : Sevila is fishy (look at a picture and you soon understand why exactly).



I believe that the bad location of the Sevilla S.Pablo station still needs to be evaluated. In a Spanish forum (http://foro.meteored.com/meteorologia+general/sevilla+aeropuerto+vs+sevillatablada-t80050.0.html), this picture was published:




That position resembles a urban station rather than a climatic rural station. In my opinion it would be questionable even for a urban station, given the violation of the _100 ft from asphalt and large paved surfaces_ criterium.

But the coordinates provided by AEMET (http://www.aemet.es/es/elclima/datosclimatologicos/valoresclimatologicos?l=5783&k=and) indicate this place http://maps.google.es/?q=Est: Sevil...66667&spn=0.182837,0.291824&z=11&output=embed

And in that exact place we find this structure










That stuff fits the appearance of an automated weather station (see below an Italian AM/ENAV automated station for comparison), it fits the coordinates provided by AEMET, and it fits WMO guidelines. The other location does not fit any of these. I am uncertain about, but I believe that the most likely location is the one indicated by AEMET, next to the airport runway. The previous one can be an old abandoned station, perhaps the previous location. This is suggested also by the lack of anemometer. We see rain-gauge, shelter, but no anemometer.

A similar circumstance occours with the Cordoba station. We can find in the internet pictures of a shelter next to asphalt, but with no anemometer. When we check the location in the Aemet website we find structures in the lawn among two lanes of the airport without any asphalt, so the stuff is unclear. 

This does not reduce the anomaly of the temperatures reported by Sevilla S.Pablo. It might be in a particular place, it might be uncalibrated (but WMO reccomends to check sensors very often), it can have lots of other problems, maybe also they set an offset to align it with the averages of a previous location (I don't think so, but some do that). The differences from the sourrounding agroclimatic stations in my opinion are too large... 

here is an Italian AM/ENAV station for comparison with the stuff above.


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## Amending (22 Jul 2011 às 12:21)

This is the best view I can get from Bing Maps.





(link: http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=q7...here1=37,4166666667 -5,8791666667&form=LMLTCC )

It witnesses only that there is something in the point indicated by AEMET as the station location for Sevilla S.Pablo. A closer photo is needed to clarify the topic.

An interesting detail. In another part of the airport there is a very similar structure (the white and red one), and at the end of the cement sidewalk there is something which is compatible with a Stevenson shelter profile. Click the link above, it is very clear.
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=q7...here1=37,4166666667 -5,8791666667&form=LMLTCC
But this place is quite far away from the one indicated by AEMET. Unzoom and the AEMET location gets displayed.


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## mesogeiakos (22 Jul 2011 às 16:59)

Amending disse:


> Yeah, no doubt that the strong UHI that characterizes Athens makes some difference with these conditions. Larissa has an airport station, the city is not huge, its UHI can reach the airport only with given wind directions; while Filadelfia is sourrounded by the city and it will be involved by UHI under most wind directions. It would be very interesting to see a comparison between Larissa and Nea Filaldefia without the UHI-boost of Athens, a thing that is impossible with contemporary data and will not be possible very soon. Santamouris & collegues are proposing lots of countermeasures to face UHI but it takes time to apply them.
> Somewhere I have a WMO stations database with 1961-1990 means for a lot of stations (over 900 stations), and Larissa is one of them. But I fear there is not Nea Filadelfia. In 1961-1990 perhaps the UHI of Athens il less intense than now; it seems that it exploded and became tremendous as it is now only in the second half of 80s.
> 
> If you are still in Athens, could you do a couple of photoreportage please?
> ...



Virtually impossible to do that since the new station is in the renovated area with far better security and plus you need to get a special permit to enter it.Regarding the trees in N.Filadelfeia that was from the old station and i doubt that those pics are real,it amazes me that HNMS pics have leaked so their validity at face value

Regarding Thiseio I have been there once in an educational school trip and remember seeing the station even though i can hardly remember it as i was little.

Besides the UHI hypothesis on N.Filadelfeia specially with Athens' complex microclimatic conditions can not be assumed safely.Given the incredibly low tmins I doubt you can hardly get UHI in N.Filadelfeia.Lastly the data for the comparisons not only with Larisa but with other cities are in the HNMS and from 1955  till 1997 data for both areas N.Filadelfeia has the lead not only over Larisa but over the whole country


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## mesogeiakos (23 Jul 2011 às 05:58)

Attica yesterday N.Filadelfeia with Greece's highest of 37.1 compared to a 37.0 in Sofades


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## Amending (23 Jul 2011 às 16:08)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Virtually impossible to do that since the new station is in the renovated area with far better security and plus you need to get a special permit to enter it.Regarding the trees in N.Filadelfeia that was from the old station and i doubt that those pics are real,it amazes me that HNMS pics have leaked so their validity at face value
> 
> Regarding Thiseio I have been there once in an educational school trip and remember seeing the station even though i can hardly remember it as i was little.



Maybe you are right, but please take a look again of the reportage

http://www.meteoclub.gr/themata/egkyklopedia/1801-met-stathmos-emy-filadelfia/

http://www.meteoclub.gr/themata/egkyklopedia/1801-met-stathmos-emy-filadelfia/

Then watch in HNMS website the coordinates they provide for the weather station of Nea Filadelfia
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/obs...?&dr_region=ObsAttiki&dr_city=ams_filadelfeia

= Longtitude 23ï44'45" / Latitude 38ï2'43"/ Alt. 141m. 

= 38°2'43''N, 23°44'45''E

Now enter these coordinates in Bing-Maps and you get http://www.bing.com/maps/#JndoZXJlM...uMDQ0MjY3NzcyNTMzNSU3ZTIzLjc0NDQxNjE4NjI2OQ==

If you zoom at maximum and switch to close view, here is what you get:

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qb...38,0452777777778 23,7458333333333&form=LMLTCC

Then you can rotate the perspective by using the curved arrows around the N symbol in the right and the results are quite persuasive.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qb...38,0452777777778 23,7458333333333&form=LMLTCC

In this one, it is very clearly seen that that station at some times was shadowed. This may account the cases of negative UHI reported by Kassomenos and Katsoulis.
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qb...38,0452777777778 23,7458333333333&form=LMLTCC

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qb...38,0452777777778 23,7458333333333&form=LMLTCC

If the reportage is false, it is very well done. 

Btw you can do exactly the same for the National Observatory of Athens plant and see the NOA shelter from above, rotate the image etcetera. Appreciable tool.
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=q9...8258&dir=111.93725728881246&sty=b&form=LMLTCC

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=q9...6878&dir=292.74008601861175&sty=b&form=LMLTCC

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=q9...8349&dir=22.270727063495134&sty=b&form=LMLTCC

I have read that NOA has a museum of old instruments. Perhaps it is possible to visit it. I think that if you just phone there to ask (and/or book) they lead you around and show to you all the stuff.


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## mesogeiakos (23 Jul 2011 às 23:36)

Maybe you are right as well but how on earth did they get permit to shoot it from HNMS?It took me 6 months to take their stupid permit and still was not allowed to photoshoot anything,thats why I seriously doubt it.

Now 3rd day  in the row that N.Filadelfeia records Greece's max
with 37.5C this time.In fact its a European max second day in the row

Regarding my visit to NOA its out of the question.I am here with my partner and I dont think he is really eager to do these stuff,instead we are going out and doing real holidays,so maybe next year


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## mesogeiakos (24 Jul 2011 às 13:55)

A nice mean max of 37.2 for Nea Filadelfeia from the period the station started transmitting data again.Higher than many areas in Andalusia for the relevant period


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## mesogeiakos (25 Jul 2011 às 04:22)

Getting tiring now to report the same thing over and over again.Nea Filadelfeia again top in Attica with 36.3 and thank god another location took Greece's top spot for yesterday.Xanthi with 36.7.

I am gonna stop reporting daily.At the end of the month I am just going to give N.Filadelfeia mean max!Cheers everyone


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## mesogeiakos (26 Jul 2011 às 00:21)

Again top spot in Greece from Nea Filadelfeia with 36.3 for the 25th


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## J.S. (26 Jul 2011 às 19:07)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Again top spot in Greece from Nea Filadelfeia with 36.3 for the 25th



Note that the average daytime max in Moura, one of the hottest places in Iberia, is only 32,5 C which is about 3-4 C below average. It wil be similar in andalucia I am sure.


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## Costa (26 Jul 2011 às 19:47)

J.S. disse:


> Note that the average daytime max in Moura, one of the hottest places in Iberia, is only 32,5 C which is about 3-4 C below average. It wil be similar in andalucia I am sure.



Beja anomaly in July


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## J.S. (26 Jul 2011 às 22:56)

Costa disse:


> Beja anomaly in July



Daytime max. look at June in Portugal: daytime max about 2 C above normal in places, on avergae somehting like 1,5 C or so. Minimum however was 0,5 C below normal....


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## mesogeiakos (27 Jul 2011 às 06:25)

Certainly hotting up in the Iberian Peninsula and I think the next few days we are going to see high temps across Portugal ,on the other hand yesterday Greece had a mere maximum of 34.7 in Nea Filadelfeia again and in Soufli with the same value


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## mesogeiakos (27 Jul 2011 às 06:27)

And here are the comparisons between Nea Filadelfeia and Larisa for the same period.So far a mean max of around 36.8C for Nea Filadelfeia for July 2011


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## mesogeiakos (28 Jul 2011 às 09:56)

36.2 yesterday in Nea Filadelfeia in Athens and at the same time Greece's max yet again from HNMS.


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## mesogeiakos (28 Jul 2011 às 18:38)

But it can be exhausting,especially the tropical nights that the temperature rarely drops below 22C


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## mesogeiakos (29 Jul 2011 às 02:06)

Once again Greece's max from HNMS to Nea Filadelfeia with 37.3 along with Leonidio with the same value for yesterday


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## mesogeiakos (29 Jul 2011 às 05:18)

And here the comparison between NW Athens and Larisa so far for July,nearing the end of month Nea Filadelfeia ends the month with the highest mean max in the country from all HNMS stations for the relevant period.






I think its fair enough to name Nea Filadelfeia ''Cordoba'' of Greece hehehe


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## mesogeiakos (30 Jul 2011 às 02:15)

Here is Attica for yesterday,Nea Filadelfeia,Athens has registered Greece's second highest temp with 37.8C behind Ormenio in the Greco-Turkish borders with 37.9C 







And here the standing between Nea Filadelfeia,Athens and Larisa


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## mesogeiakos (31 Jul 2011 às 01:44)

38.2 in Nea Filadelfeia,Athens and Greece's maximum from HNMS for yesterday

Below the data for Attica


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## nutas (31 Jul 2011 às 03:09)

Se  Athenas continuar quente assim, vai competir com bagdá aonde as temperaturas passam facilmente dos 50 °C, pra mim a região aonde está o Iraque é o lugar mais quente do mundo aonde as temperaturas podem alcançar 60 °C.  



Athens is still hot then, it'll compete with Baghdad where temperatures easily pass the 50 ° C, for me is the region where Iraq is the hottest place in the world where the temperatures can be arrive 60 ° C.


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## J.S. (31 Jul 2011 às 10:41)

nutas disse:


> Se  Athenas continuar quente assim, vai competir com bagdá aonde as temperaturas passam facilmente dos 50 °C, pra mim a região aonde está o Iraque é o lugar mais quente do mundo aonde as temperaturas podem alcançar 60 °C.
> 
> 
> 
> Athens is still hot then, it'll compete with Baghdad where temperatures easily pass the 50 ° C, for me is the region where Iraq is the hottest place in the world where the temperatures can be arrive 60 ° C.



According to you may be, according to thermometers not and I have just a little more faith in those....
The hottest reliable temperature ever recorded in Asia was 53,5 C measured in Pakistan just last year. There is another record from 53,9 C ad Tiriat Tsvi, but the record itself shows 53 C "only"...

So 60 C? Just like that? No: then we would have seen reliable readings in the order of 58 C or so.


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## nutas (31 Jul 2011 às 13:31)

J.S. disse:


> According to you may be, according to thermometers not and I have just a little more faith in those....
> The hottest reliable temperature ever recorded in Asia was 53,5 C measured in Pakistan just last year. There is another record from 53,9 C ad Tiriat Tsvi, but the record itself shows 53 C "only"...
> 
> So 60 C? Just like that? No: then we would have seen reliable readings in the order of 58 C or so.



Bom, a muitos relatos de temperatura máximas e mínimas não officias.A registro pelo satélite da   nasa de  ,temperaturas de até 71°C  no deserto de Lut, no Irã. Acredita-se que esta seja a temperatura mais alta já encontrada na superfície da Terra.  Existe muita controvérsia sobre qual é o lugar mais quente da Terra.  Muitos acreditam que em Al Azizyah, na Líbia, foi marcada uma temperatura de 57,8 °C , e que o segundo lugar mais quente seria o Vale da Morte na Califórnia, Estados Unidos. Ali, a temperatura chegou a 56,7 °C em 1913.           


Well, many reports of maximum and minimum temperature record officias.A not by the NASA satellite, temperatures up to 71 ° C in the Lut Desert, Iran is believed that this is the highest temperature ever found on the surface of earth. There is much controversy about which is the hottest place on Earth. Many believe that Al Azizyah, Libya, was marked at a temperature of 57.8 ° C, and the second would be the hottest place in Death Valley in California, United States. There, the temperature reached 56.7 ° C in 1913.


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## belem (31 Jul 2011 às 16:14)

nutas disse:


> Se  Athenas continuar quente assim, vai competir com bagdá aonde as temperaturas passam facilmente dos 50 °C, pra mim a região aonde está o Iraque é o lugar mais quente do mundo aonde as temperaturas podem alcançar 60 °C.
> 
> 
> 
> Athens is still hot then, it'll compete with Baghdad where temperatures easily pass the 50 ° C, for me is the region where Iraq is the hottest place in the world where the temperatures can be arrive 60 ° C.



Tem dados de Bagdad para comparar?


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## nutas (31 Jul 2011 às 16:32)

belem disse:


> Tem dados de Bagdad para comparar?


          Bom é só olhar as temperatura média do  verão  em  Bagdad , e ver que  as temperaturas  máximas  chega aos  50 °C. Se alguns anos a temperatura em Athenas vai chegar  ao extremo de 50 °C vai esta próximo da média de Bagdad.


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## belem (31 Jul 2011 às 16:47)

nutas disse:


> Bom é só olhar as temperatura média do  verão  em  Bagdad , e ver que  as temperaturas  máximas  chega aos  50 °C. Se alguns anos a temperatura em Athenas vai chegar  ao extremo de 50 °C vai esta próximo da média de Bagdad.



Exato, a temperatura média dos meses de  verão em Bagdad, nem sequer é comparável ao que é registado em Atenas. Atenas é muito mais semelhante no verão, a alguns locais da P. Ibérica do que em relação a Bagdad.
Quanto ao futuro não sei, não faço previsões desse género.


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## nutas (31 Jul 2011 às 16:53)

belem disse:


> Exato, a temperatura média dos meses de  verão em Bagdad, nem sequer é comparável ao que é registado em Atenas. Atenas é muito mais semelhante no verão, a alguns locais da P. Ibérica do que em relação a Bagdad.
> Quanto ao futuro não sei, não faço previsões desse género.



nem eu mas eu espero que não haja mudança brusca no clima mundial


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## belem (31 Jul 2011 às 17:05)

nutas disse:


> nem eu mas eu espero que não haja mudança brusca no clima mundial



Pois, não é muito provável que haja uma mudança brusca em  pouco espaço de tempo.


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## mesogeiakos (1 Ago 2011 às 01:21)

Baghdad is a bit of an overstatement for Athens. I am not sure Athens can reach Baghdad but in some very warm years it can definitely compete with Baghdad in the mean temperatures.

Yesterday Athens recorded again the highest temperature in Greece with a maximum of 36.9C in Nea Filadelfeia







And here is the end of the month comparison between NW Athens and Larisa.It is worth mentioning that out of the 75 HNMS stations and out of the 168 NOA automatic stations (non wmo ones) and the extra three WMO  NOA stations ,the station of Filadelfeia (wmo id 16791) comes out with the highest mean maximum in Greece for the relevant period.This in effect means that the Nea Filadelfeia new station has recorded the highest mean max for the relevant period out of 246 stations in Greece with a mean maximum temperature of 37.01C....


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## AnDré (1 Ago 2011 às 03:55)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Baghdad is a bit of an overstatement for Athens. I am not sure Athens can reach Baghdad but in some very warm years it can definitely compete with Baghdad in the mean temperatures.



~37ºC was the mean temperature of this July in Baghdad. 

Ogimet


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## mesogeiakos (1 Ago 2011 às 07:30)

AnDré disse:


> ~37ºC was the mean temperature of this July in Baghdad.
> 
> Ogimet




Well the first 11 days of missing data for Nea Filadelfeia for July were slightly cooler with the Meltemi winds so we are probably looking at a mean max around 36.1 to 36.3 for N.Filadelfeia for the whole of July 2011.Baghdad is unreachable when it heats up.Nothing in Europe can compare with them,even Nicosia would have trouble reaching them...


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## J.S. (1 Ago 2011 às 20:45)

nutas disse:


> Bom, a muitos relatos de temperatura máximas e mínimas não officias.A registro pelo satélite da   nasa de  ,temperaturas de até 71°C  no deserto de Lut, no Irã. Acredita-se que esta seja a temperatura mais alta já encontrada na superfície da Terra.  Existe muita controvérsia sobre qual é o lugar mais quente da Terra.  Muitos acreditam que em Al Azizyah, na Líbia, foi marcada uma temperatura de 57,8 °C , e que o segundo lugar mais quente seria o Vale da Morte na Califórnia, Estados Unidos. Ali, a temperatura chegou a 56,7 °C em 1913.
> 
> 
> Well, many reports of maximum and minimum temperature record officias.A not by the NASA satellite, temperatures up to 71 ° C in the Lut Desert, Iran is believed that this is the highest temperature ever found on the surface of earth. There is much controversy about which is the hottest place on Earth. Many believe that Al Azizyah, Libya, was marked at a temperature of 57.8 ° C, and the second would be the hottest place in Death Valley in California, United States. There, the temperature reached 56.7 ° C in 1913.



Both of the last records are to be looked at with critical eyes. For many reasons.

Remote sensing as far as I know is not capable of exacting temperatures at 1.5- 2m height. 71 C will be measured at the surface of the Earth, but not at 1.5-2 m height.


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## mesogeiakos (2 Ago 2011 às 01:12)

Well, the start of August gives again the highest max at a national level in Athens with 36.3C in N.Filadelfeia


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## mesogeiakos (4 Ago 2011 às 03:40)

As expected yesterday with the Meltemi winds Hellenikon tops Attica's highest temp with N.Filadelfeia lower,the same for Elefsina


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## Ferreiro (9 Ago 2011 às 21:18)

Ogimet ja publicou os dados de julho de Atenas-Elefsina, e uma vez mais um novo fracaso, incapaz de chegar aos 40ºC,

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31

Tampouco o conseguiu em Junho, e dificilmente o conseguirá em Agosto, pelo que adiantamos que ja mais de 3 anos que nao consegue atingir os 40ºC, ja que tampouco em 2010 e 2009 o logrou. Algo muito sospeitoso para uma cidade que tem um record de 48.0ºC. O mesmo record de 48.0ºC tem Atenas-Tatoi, mas é a mesma historia que Elefsina. Estou seguro que no futuro ambos records serão considerados lixo.

Enquanto a isso ums esperam ver 50ºC, mas outros têm que suportar os 40ºC com regularidade.
Ontem em Sevilla
Sevilla-cmt 41.6ºC
Sevilla-Tablada 40.9ºC
Sevilla-aeroporto (San Pablo) 40.5ºC

http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo/2011/8/08/?order=t.tmax-DESC


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## mesogeiakos (10 Ago 2011 às 07:09)

Ferreiro disse:


> Ogimet ja publicou os dados de julho de Atenas-Elefsina, e uma vez mais um novo fracaso, incapaz de chegar aos 40ºC,
> 
> http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31
> 
> ...



I think that the only thing certain is that you will continue to be surprised about  Attica's dynamic.

I understand that it is difficult for some people to get over the fact that Athens has shown its grip to Seville in extreme temps and given the Athenian orography in extreme events we as Athenians know very well that nothing can stand in our way 

Let's not forget the epic 2007 where we had up to 47.5 and up to 49.2(non wmo station) in Athens.


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## mesogeiakos (10 Ago 2011 às 15:27)

And still Elefsina has higher summer means (ie overall warmer) compared to Andujar!Amazing Attica indeed!


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## Aristocrata (10 Ago 2011 às 15:54)

Andamos numa discussão sem fim...

Claramente Atenas terá uma média de verão (toda a estação e não só umas semanas) superior à de Sevilha.

Atenas é muito quente, ocasionalmente ultrapassa os 40ºC de máxima. Quanto às mínimas, a sua média é relativamente elevada.
A acção amenizadora do mar mediterrâneo tem de ser colocada em cima da mesa no que se refere às máximas; já quanto às mínimas é natural que a mantenha mais altas.

Sevilha tem um clima marcado por maiores amplitudes térmicas, mais altas as máximas absolutas e mais baixas as mínimas. Será um clima mais "continentalizado".

Considerando isto é natural que em média Atenas seja mais quente, o que não quer dizer que em relação às máximas isso seja assim...


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## belem (10 Ago 2011 às 16:17)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Well the first 11 days of missing data for Nea Filadelfeia for July were slightly cooler with the Meltemi winds so we are probably looking at a mean max around 36.1 to 36.3 for N.Filadelfeia for the whole of July 2011.Baghdad is unreachable when it heats up.Nothing in Europe can compare with them,even Nicosia would have trouble reaching them...



Nicosia?? Not even all entire Cyprus and by far. 
Can you provide us  Nicosia data?
Thanks.


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## mesogeiakos (11 Ago 2011 às 11:21)

belem disse:


> Nicosia?? Not even all entire Cyprus and by far.
> Can you provide us  Nicosia data?
> Thanks.



Meaning obviously that Nicosia is much warmer than any area in Europe in the summer.Still no comparison with Baghdad though.

Nicosia has mean maxes for long term data in July and August around 37C.Thats unbeatable,no area in Europe can compete with the interior of the Messaoria valley in Cyprus.Especially the free Greek part   of the island in its interior has tremendous mean maxes but obviously Cyprus is in west Asia geographically.

Even September has a mean max close to 34(!)
http://www.worldweather.org/104/c01441.htm
*
The JJA mean max for Nicosia is 35.83C this is like....huge!No area even in political Europe can  get anywhere near this*

You see,Greeks go where heat does!heheheh


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## mesogeiakos (11 Ago 2011 às 11:48)

Aristocrata disse:


> Considerando isto é natural que em média Atenas seja mais quente, o que não quer dizer que em relação às máximas isso seja assim...



Dont forget that Athens is not so easy to overgeneralize. Look at the interior of the Athens basin and Attica.N.Filadelfeia for example is unbeatable in Greece in mean maxes with a JJA mean of around 33C.

Also dont forget than in *absolute maxes *Athens beats Seville and any other in Europe with the stunning 48.0C


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## belem (16 Ago 2011 às 23:58)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Meaning obviously that Nicosia is much warmer than any area in Europe in the summer.Still no comparison with Baghdad though.
> 
> Nicosia has mean maxes for long term data in July and August around 37C.Thats unbeatable,no area in Europe can compete with the interior of the Messaoria valley in Cyprus.Especially the free Greek part   of the island in its interior has tremendous mean maxes but obviously Cyprus is in west Asia geographically.
> 
> ...



Cyprus isn´t separated from Greece?
I mean officially, etc, etc...?
Regarding your temperature opinion and so on , I won´t comment.

Very interesting data, Ferreiro.
Keep posting.


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## Ferreiro (17 Ago 2011 às 13:20)

As mediçaos dos satelites da temperatura da superficie do solo nao deixam duvidas. Grecia esta muito por detras da peninsula iberica e sicilia em calor. Somente mediçaos dubidosas e ilha de calor brutal podem colocar ás estaçaos meteorologicas de Atenas por diante.


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## duncan (18 Ago 2011 às 01:09)

Ferreiro disse:


> As mediçaos dos satelites da temperatura da superficie do solo nao deixam duvidas. Grecia esta muito por detras da peninsula iberica e sicilia em calor. Somente mediçaos dubidosas e ilha de calor brutal podem colocar ás estaçaos meteorologicas de Atenas por diante.



ola,eu nem sei como Atenas ja conseguiu chegar aos 48cº,pois ja pesquisei os dados da estaçao oficial de atenas do aeroporto,apesar da media da temperatura maxima rondar os 33 34c fica longe dos 40,mas reparei que as minimas sao muito elevadas quase sempre acima dos 20c dando uma sensaçao termica desconfortável.pelo contrário Sevilha com facilidade chega aos 40 e muitas vezes ta la muito proximo,alias acho que Amareleja que ja chegou aos 47,4(recorde nacional)tem as medias das maximas mais altas que Atenas.

tenho uma duvida em relaçao ás temperatura tiradas por satélite,70c?,mas a maxima mundial nao fo 58c na libia.O satelite nao tem em consideraçao as regras da temperatura ao Abrigo,protegido do sol?


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## Costa (18 Ago 2011 às 09:06)

duncan disse:


> tenho uma duvida em relaçao ás temperatura tiradas por satélite,70c?,mas a maxima mundial nao fo 58c na libia.O satelite nao tem em consideraçao as regras da temperatura ao Abrigo,protegido do sol?



Aquelas temperatura são do solo.


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## Ferreiro (18 Ago 2011 às 10:04)

O registro oficial de Atenas-Tatoi é ainda mais improvável. Tem um máximo de 48.0ºC (exactamente assim como Elefsina)

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Tatoi

O problema é que Tatoi é uma estaçao meteorologica localizada ao norte de Atenas, em altitude, 235 metros, por isso suas temperaturas são sempre mais frescas do que o resto da cidade.


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## duncan (18 Ago 2011 às 11:32)

Costa disse:


> Aquelas temperatura são do solo.



ok,entao faz sentido ser tao elevadas-obrigado


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## Ferreiro (19 Ago 2011 às 22:05)

No entretanto sigo esperamdo pelos 40ºC em Atenas....


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## mesogeiakos (22 Ago 2011 às 02:31)

Ferreiro disse:


> O registro oficial de Atenas-Tatoi é ainda mais improvável. Tem um máximo de 48.0ºC (exactamente assim como Elefsina)
> 
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_region_diagrams_html?dr_city=Tatoi
> 
> O problema é que Tatoi é uma estaçao meteorologica localizada ao norte de Atenas, em altitude, 235 metros, por isso suas temperaturas são sempre mais frescas do que o resto da cidade.




And the record of Europe off course.

Meanwhile Nea Filadelfeia,Athens has a mean maximum of *35.87C *so far for July-August 2011.The highest out of ALL HNMS stations in Greece.

While you have a psychological problem with the 40C mark here are the maxes of Athens hottest station!




duncan disse:


> ola,eu nem sei como Atenas ja conseguiu chegar aos 48cº,pois ja pesquisei os dados da estaçao oficial de atenas do aeroporto,apesar da media da temperatura maxima rondar os 33 34c fica longe dos 40,mas reparei que as minimas sao muito elevadas quase sempre acima dos 20c dando uma sensaçao termica desconfortável.pelo contrário Sevilha com facilidade chega aos 40 e muitas vezes ta la muito proximo,alias acho que Amareleja que ja chegou aos 47,4(recorde nacional)tem as medias das maximas mais altas que Atenas.
> 
> tenho uma duvida em relaçao ás temperatura tiradas por satélite,70c?,mas a maxima mundial nao fo 58c na libia.O satelite nao tem em consideraçao as regras da temperatura ao Abrigo,protegido do sol?



Hi my friend.Why are you looking only the data of the Athens Airport which is by the sea?Hellenikon airport has hot maximums only when we have the Meltemi winds in Athens.The rest of the summer the sea breeze keeps the temps lower.


Look below the data of the hottest area of Athens and you will get an idea of how it can reach 48C.
Let me remind you that the Filadelfeia HNMS station in 2007 registered 47.5C.Here are the data of N.Filadelfeia station so far this summer


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## mesogeiakos (22 Ago 2011 às 11:18)

belem disse:


> Cyprus isn´t separated from Greece?
> I mean officially, etc, etc...?
> Regarding your temperature opinion and so on , I won´t comment.
> 
> ...




off course Cyprus is seperated from Greece.I am just commenting on the fact that the warmest area of political Europe during the summer is again inhabited by Greeks 

So we have 2/2.Greeks live in the warmest area of geo Europe during the summer in Attica and the same goes with political Europe with Cyprus

Greece is only a guarantor power to Cyprus officially from 1960.Meaning that Greece guarantees  politically and military wise the existence of the Greeks on the island with the official capacity to intervene in Cyprus when and if the Greeks on the island are in danger.


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## belem (22 Ago 2011 às 16:15)

mesogeiakos disse:


> off course Cyprus is seperated from Greece.I am just commenting on the fact that the warmest area of political Europe during the summer is again inhabited by Greeks
> 
> So we have 2/2.Greeks live in the warmest area of geo Europe during the summer in Attica and the same goes with political Europe with Cyprus
> 
> Greece is only a guarantor power to Cyprus officially from 1960. Meaning that Greece guarantees  politically and military wise the existence of the Greeks on the island with the official capacity to intervene in Cyprus when and if the Greeks on the island are in danger.



I think that´s pointless for this debate, just curious nevertheless. Certain human populations can adaptate and demand for political rights in foreign countries. Portuguese and Spanish settled even in Equatorial regions in South America and Africa.

But, regarding the political Europe comparison,  Canary islands and Madeira islands are warmer than Cyprus, on year average. At least,  both have warmer regions, than the warmest places of Cyprus that I currently know.
And I´m basing partly on old series data from Macaronesia, compared with the last data of Cyprus that I have seen.
I don´t see the big point on all this, as I think that´s expected... But Cyprus isn´t less interesting because of this.


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## Ferreiro (22 Ago 2011 às 16:36)

mesogeiakos disse:


> And the record of Europe off course.
> 
> Meanwhile Nea Filadelfeia,Athens has a mean maximum of *35.87C *so far for July-August 2011.The highest out of ALL HNMS stations in Greece.
> 
> ...




De eses dados (oficiais ou nao) o que vemos é que igual que Elefsina, fracasou em chegar a os 40ºC este verao, em pese a que Filadelfia é uma estaçao meteorológica localizada no interior da cidade de Atenas, pelo que debido a sua famosa contaminaçao desacredita completamente as elevadas temperaturas.

Andujar tem até agora em agosto 39.2ºC de media das temperaturas máximas. Montoro 39.0ºC. Sevilla Aeroporto 37.5ºC. Sem ilha de calor.
http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-mensual/2011-08/?order=t.tmed_max-DESC


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## Ferreiro (22 Ago 2011 às 16:40)

belem disse:


> I think that´s pointless for this debate, just curious nevertheless.
> Portuguese or Spanish people live and thrive even in tropical regions.
> 
> But, regarding political Europe  for example,  Canary islands and Madeira islands are warmer than Cyprus, on year average. At least,  both have warmer regions, than the warmest places of Cyprus that I currently know.
> And I´m basing on old series data from Macaronesia, compared with the last data of Cyprus that I have seen.



Uma comparaçao entre Chipre e Canarias/Açores/Madeira é absurda.
Em chipre há geadas a nivel do mar, coisa impossivel nas ilhas Canarias, Madeira...

Este inverno em Nicosia 
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=175210-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=03&day=01&ndays=31

Todo Chipre um día do pasado fevereiro
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?mode=1&state=Cyp&ind=&ord=REV&ano=2011&mes=02&day=03&ndays=

Se falamos de temperaturas medias ja é de risa. Em Canarias há locais com mais de 20ºC em janeiro de 2011 (é o habitual):
http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-mensual/2011-01/?order=t.tmed-DESC


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## Ferreiro (22 Ago 2011 às 16:49)

Os dados até agora de Atenas-Elefsina no 2011.
Fracasou um ano mais em chegar a os 40ºC.

Junho
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=06&day=30&ndays=31

Julho
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31

Porei agosto.


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## Ferreiro (22 Ago 2011 às 17:04)

Digo ainda mais: é fisicamente impossivel que em um pais europeo (Grecia) a temperatura máxima ocurra na costa (Atenas-Elefsina 48.0ºC) ou muito menos num alto em frente da costa (Atenas-Tatoi 48.0ºC), e em Grecia menos que em ningum outro, ja que Grecia tem muitisimos vales fechados no interior.
Se Atenas tem a maxima oficial em Grecia somente pode ser debido a um erro na mediçao ou á actividade humana.


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## mesogeiakos (23 Ago 2011 às 04:40)

belem disse:


> I think that´s pointless for this debate, just curious nevertheless. Certain human populations can adaptate and demand for political rights in foreign countries. Portuguese and Spanish settled even in Equatorial regions in South America and Africa.
> 
> But, regarding the political Europe comparison,  Canary islands and Madeira islands are warmer than Cyprus, on year average. At least,  both have warmer regions, than the warmest places of Cyprus that I currently know.
> And I´m basing partly on old series data from Macaronesia, compared with the last data of Cyprus that I have seen.
> I don´t see the big point on all this, as I think that´s expected... But Cyprus isn´t less interesting because of this.



I was referring to warmest DURING THE SUMMER in Political Europe.


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## mesogeiakos (23 Ago 2011 às 04:43)

Ferreiro disse:


> Digo ainda mais: é fisicamente impossivel que em um pais europeo (Grecia) a temperatura máxima ocurra na costa (Atenas-Elefsina 48.0ºC) ou muito menos num alto em frente da costa (Atenas-Tatoi 48.0ºC), e em Grecia menos que em ningum outro, ja que Grecia tem muitisimos vales fechados no interior.
> Se Atenas tem a maxima oficial em Grecia somente pode ser debido a um erro na mediçao ou á actividade humana.



You can cry all you want Athens has register TWICE 48.0C in 1977 in TWO different areas on the SAME DAY.

And one time 47.5C.Athens is UNBEATABLE IN EXTREME TEMPS.Nothing in Europe can compare to the extreme maxes that Athens can register


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## mesogeiakos (23 Ago 2011 às 04:47)

Ferreiro disse:


> Uma comparaçao entre Chipre e Canarias/Açores/Madeira é absurda.
> Em chipre há geadas a nivel do mar, coisa impossivel nas ilhas Canarias, Madeira...
> 
> Este inverno em Nicosia
> ...




Cyprus destroys EVERY SINGLE AREA IN POLITICAL EUROPE DURING THE SUMMER.

I understand you can hardly speak English so spare us,will u?


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## mesogeiakos (23 Ago 2011 às 04:50)

Ferreiro disse:


> De eses dados (oficiais ou nao) o que vemos é que igual que Elefsina, fracasou em chegar a os 40ºC este verao, em pese a que Filadelfia é uma estaçao meteorológica localizada no interior da cidade de Atenas, pelo que debido a sua famosa contaminaçao desacredita completamente as elevadas temperaturas.
> 
> Andujar tem até agora em agosto 39.2ºC de media das temperaturas máximas. Montoro 39.0ºC. Sevilla Aeroporto 37.5ºC. Sem ilha de calor.
> http://www.tiempodiario.com/tiempo-mensual/2011-08/?order=t.tmed_max-DESC




Filadelfeia is inside a huge forest in Athens and it is because it is located in the interior of Attica that in can register the highest mean max in the country.Again spare us with ur fixation in Athens.Spain *WILL NEVER* manage to beat the 48.0C of Athens from an official station and even if it does Athens will soon register 50.0C 

Your worst nightmare will come true!You will sleep and dream of Athens and you will wake up thinking of how to beat the superpower of European heat!

*KNEEL TO ATHENS DEDALUS!*
*ATTICA RULES EUROPE*


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## Costa (23 Ago 2011 às 09:14)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Nothing in Europe can compare to the extreme maxes that Athens can register



I think this sentence is very exaggerated. How can't nothing to compare with extreme Athens max if during a cool summer Spanish and Portuguese stations break easily the 40ºC with some stations reaching 43ºC and Athens during an above average summer (looking that table temperatures) can't even hit 40ºC?

If you talk about extreme mins i will agree, but extreme maxs i can't agree because simply is not true.


About Cyprus, they are very near to the Madeira average. I don't understand why you use words like "destroy", "UNBEATABLE ", etc, when talking about 0.5/1ºC of different (if).



mesogeiakos disse:


> Spain *WILL NEVER* manage to beat the 48.0C of Athens from an official station and even if it does Athens will soon register 50.0C



How can you say such a thing? Can you look into the future? If Portugal and Spain already reach 47ºC on the last 10 years why can't they reach 48.1ºC on the future?


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## belem (23 Ago 2011 às 15:11)

Costa disse:


> I think this sentence is very exaggerated. How can't nothing to compare with extreme Athens max if during a cool summer Spanish and Portuguese stations break easily the 40ºC with some stations reaching 43ºC and Athens during an above average summer (looking that table temperatures) can't even hit 40ºC?
> 
> If you talk about extreme mins i will agree, but extreme maxs i can't agree because simply is not true.
> 
> ...



I think that Mesogeiakos, was talking about the summer average,  because of it´s maximum averages, but mainly due to lack of data to confirm that , I won´t discuss this now. 
Madeira is warmer on year average ( see, it´s latitude reaches even 30 º N), but not during the summer, which is expected. The same goes about the Canary islands
I have seen old data from Lugar de Baixo and it was still warmer than all the Cyprus averages that I had acess. IM did published an article underlining the places that did got above 20ºc ( year average) in Madeira ( 1960-1990).
And this was only for the main island, not for the warmest islands in the south ( because it weren´t covered by the study).


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## Ferreiro (24 Ago 2011 às 10:29)

Ferreiro disse:


> Os dados até agora de Atenas-Elefsina no 2011.
> Fracasou um ano mais em chegar a os 40ºC.
> 
> Junho
> ...



Atenas-Elefsina tambem fracasou no ano 2010 em chegar aos 40ºC

Junho 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=06&day=30&ndays=31

Julho 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31

Agosto 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=08&day=31&ndays=31


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## Dan (24 Ago 2011 às 16:28)

Claro que é muito mais frequente a ocorrencia de valores superiores a 40ºC no sul da Peninsula Ibérica, uma vez que é essa a regiao da Europa com as médias das máximas mais elevadas nos meses de Verão. O caso dos 48ºC em Atenas pode ter várias explicações, pode ter sido um caso muito exepcional ou mesmo uma situação em que o registo foi obtido sem respeitar as condições exigidas. 

________________

Peço desculpa pela falta de alguns acentos, mas estou a utilizar um teclado nao nacional.


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## mesogeiakos (24 Ago 2011 às 21:53)

Dan disse:


> Claro que é muito mais frequente a ocorrencia de valores superiores a 40ºC no sul da Peninsula Ibérica, uma vez que é essa a regiao da Europa com as médias das máximas mais elevadas nos meses de Verão. O caso dos 48ºC em Atenas pode ter várias explicações, pode ter sido um caso muito exepcional ou mesmo uma situação em que o registo foi obtido sem respeitar as condições exigidas.
> 
> ________________
> 
> Peço desculpa pela falta de alguns acentos, mas estou a utilizar um teclado nao nacional.




Its not like that.Look at Elefsina when it comes to EXTREME weather events it has registered  by the SEA , *9 times over 45.0C the last 35 years.*Not even Cordoba managed this!

It is the orography and the special conditions due to the huge mountains that make Attica and Athens so complex during the summer!


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## mesogeiakos (24 Ago 2011 às 22:00)

Costa disse:


> I think this sentence is very exaggerated. How can't nothing to compare with extreme Athens max if during a cool summer Spanish and Portuguese stations break easily the 40ºC with some stations reaching 43ºC and Athens during an above average summer (looking that table temperatures) can't even hit 40ºC?
> 
> If you talk about extreme mins i will agree, but extreme maxs i can't agree because simply is not true.
> 
> ...



Obviously I was referring to the SUMMER MAXES OF CYPRUS and regarding Athens you have it wrong!Elefsina managed 9 times over 45.0C in EXTREME events the past 35 years and not even Seville or Cordoba have managed that.Mind you that Elefsina is by the SEA and due to the phoen events it has the ability to easily register in EXTREME events the highest temps in Europe.I believe only Murcia is comparable in EXTREME events and not normal dynamic.

1.Athens basin 

OR

2.Murcia Plains 

are the most likely candidates in my opinion to register Europe's highest recorded temperatures

!They are the strongest in the continent due to special orographic conditions.I believe that the record of Europe will always be between either Athens or Murcia.All the rest are sloppy seconds in my opinion when it comes to EXTREME dynamic

PS.The only year from 2000 onwards that an official station in Athens has not registered 40C is this year!Dont forget also the 47.5C of Nea Filadelfeia in 2007!


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## mesogeiakos (24 Ago 2011 às 22:19)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Just a correction,the temperature in Elefsina on 19/7/1973 was actually 46.4C according to HNMS,so the proper list is
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Here you go again.


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## Ferreiro (25 Ago 2011 às 10:32)

Os últimos 3 anos em Atenas-Elefsina. Fracaso total em chegar a os 40ºC.

Junho 2011
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=06&day=30&ndays=31

Julho 2011
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31


Junho 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=06&day=30&ndays=31

Julho 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31

Agosto 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2010&mes=08&day=31&ndays=31

E os dados de 2009, uma vez mais fracasou em chegar a os 40ºC.

Junho de 2009:
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2009&mes=06&day=30&ndays=31

Julho de 2009, aquí há um día com 40ºC, mas há que advertir que Ogimet redondea os dados de Elefsina, a cifra real foi entre 39.5ºC e 40ºC:
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2009&mes=07&day=31&ndays=31

Agosto de 2009:
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2009&mes=08&day=31&ndays=31



*Resumo*: *3 anos sem chegar a 40ºC*. Um balanço muito pobre. ¿Quantas vezes se superam os 40ºC nos vales de Guadalquivir e Guadiana em 3 anos?
Em Andujar somente no verao pasado superarom os 40ºC mais de 20 veces!!!
Talvez com a crise economica disminuiu a contaminaçao em Elefsina os ultimos anos . Em Elefsina segundo a Wikipedia está concentrada o 60% da industria pesada grega.

A realidade é que Atenas muitas poucas vezes supera os 40ºC, e cando o fai sempre é em estaçaos dentro da cidade, e quase nunca nas estaçaos fóra da cidade (Aeroporto de Spata/E. Venizelos).


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## mesogeiakos (25 Ago 2011 às 16:26)

Ferreiro disse:


> Os últimos 3 anos em Atenas-Elefsina. Fracaso total em chegar a os 40ºC.
> 
> Junho 2011
> http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodres?ind=167180-99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=06&day=30&ndays=31
> ...




Why dont you show the data from N.Filadelfeia as well for the past 3 years to see your 40's?
Spare me Dedalus,the oggimet data for Elefsina station are wrong.They dont even have decimals.Dont be stupid mate,you can find the official Elefsina stats from HNMS climatic bulletins,spare me with the Oggimet bullshit

When you overcome your psychological issue with Athens (which I am happy to say I created to you  ) come and tell me if Spain will ever manage to register 1 time over 48.0C officially 

*You will always remember Athens for the rest of your life*


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## mesogeiakos (3 Set 2011 às 13:24)

No surprises there....


As Ian simply said....ATTICA WINS


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## Ferreiro (5 Set 2011 às 12:42)

terminado o mes de agosto, um novo fracasso de Atenas-Elefsina, que um ano mais, e ja são tres anos: 2009, 2010 e 2011, nao chegou a os 40ºC. A temperatura máxima do mes foi de 37ºC. E somente 2 días mais chegou a 35ºC. Ata Madrid (a mais de 600 metros) foi mais quente en temperaturas diurnas.

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=08&day=31&ndays=31

Ja vem que a estaçao que tem 48.0ºC oficiais quase nunca chega a 40ºC, 
Por suposto, em Atenas-Tatoi, a outra estaçao como 48.0ºC, o mesmo fracasso.


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## Ferreiro (5 Set 2011 às 12:53)

Portanto, resumo dos 3 últimos anos em Atenas-Elefsina. Nemunha vez os 40ºC.


Junho 2011
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=30&ndays=31

Julho 2011
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=31&ndays=31

Agosto 2011
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodr...99999&ord=DIR&ano=2011&mes=08&day=31&ndays=31

Junho 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=30&ndays=31

Julho 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=31&ndays=31

Agosto 2010
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=31&ndays=31

E os dados de 2009, uma vez mais fracasou em chegar a os 40ºC.

Junho de 2009:
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=30&ndays=31

Julho de 2009, aquí há um día com 40ºC, mas há que advertir que Ogimet redondea os dados de Elefsina, a cifra real foi entre 39.5ºC e 40ºC:
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=31&ndays=31

Agosto de 2009:
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsodre...ay=31&ndays=31


Talvez o proximo ano


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## stormy (5 Set 2011 às 13:43)

mesogeiakos disse:


> No surprises there....
> 
> 
> As Ian simply said....ATTICA WINS



Attica is warmer during the night and Andalusia is warmer during the day, that´s the most relevant fact, because the averages are not even one degree apart.

I was shocked that the difference between the top 12 warmest yearly mean in Europe were also such tiny...for example, Faro was only 1.98ºC colder than Palaiochora..and Faro was in 11th place  while Palaiochora got the first..


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## belem (7 Set 2011 às 19:30)

stormy disse:


> Attica is warmer during the night and Andalusia is warmer during the day, that´s the most relevant fact, because the averages are not even one degree apart.
> 
> I was shocked that the difference between the top 12 warmest yearly mean in Europe were also such tiny...for example, Faro was only 1.98ºC colder than Palaiochora..and Faro was in 11th place  while Palaiochora got the first..





Yes, I agree with you. I did said the same thing, sometime ago.
 Faro, with it´s local fresh cape type of climate, getting up to the 11 th place is laughable... I wonder about what would happen if the warm regions start to be studied in Algarve, let alone the Guadiana Valley, Tagus valley, Guadalquivir valley, etc...
One important note: this small home made contest, is only about some cities, it doesn´t give an idea about where are the warmest places and how warm it are. And for me, this would be the ultimate challenge, all the rest is rubbish, just to fulfill the ego of someone. On that « challenge» that you presented, some cities are chosen by people, but data isn´t based on averages and these figures are only based on small samples. lol  This simply put; 1, 2 or 3 years data, can be only interesting, not really important climatically, to define the warmest areas. Also this data can downgrade unfairly other countries, simply because it haven´t the same weather coverage, on it´s warmest areas. If you check the altitude and the weather station positions, between the countries, you´ll easily notice, the bias behind all this... Nevertheless, is a bit interesting, to understand that even a locally fresh place, can get so close to other ones, well known for being locally «warm».

Seville getting so close to Crete´s Palaiochora, is also funny in my opinion.
See the differences between the positions of these 2 cities and you´ll understand why.

So my conclusion about this small data sample, is that, though interesting isn´t solid/ complete enough to make a serious scientific climatological  resume about it.


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## Ferreiro (9 Set 2011 às 14:33)

Ontem de novo mais de 40ºC no vale do Guadalquivir. A realidade é que por cada día que em Grecia chegam a 40ºC, na peninsula iberica temos 10 días como temperaturas de mais de 40ºC. 

O HNMS (servizo meteorologico grego) aínda nao publicou os dados de julho, mais cando o faga sospeito que serão muito diferentes aos aportados por ese personagem


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## mesogeiakos (11 Set 2011 às 15:17)

belem disse:


> Seville getting so close to Crete´s Palaiochora, is also funny in my opinion.
> See the differences between the positions of these 2 cities and you´ll understand why.
> 
> So my conclusion about this small data sample, is that, though interesting isn´t solid/ complete enough to make a serious scientific climatological  resume about it.




Bit edgy, arent we? I dont think that Ian claims a PhD thesis for Attica vs Andalusia nor I believe he is trying to get the data published in academia. 

You mention the difference between Seville and Palaiohora when the difference between Athens and Seville from Ian's thread is even less and last year Athens was warmer annually. Off course no one claims that 2 years of data can give a valid conclusion they just add to the long terms stats that want Attica warmest in Europe during the summer.

I think you just take this way too serious , but it is understandable since it shows that Iberia at least from the available data from WMO stations is second best in terms of heat ,something which I have spotted more than a decade now. Empirically speaking I doubt something can or will change by just wishing it would or accusing Ian of bias when in fact the ''home made'' competition is the most systematic one in any European forum. Ok I get it that you would accuse me of bias, but Ian?


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## belem (11 Set 2011 às 17:54)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Bit edgy, arent we? I dont think that Ian claims a PhD thesis for Attica vs Andalusia nor I believe he is trying to get the data published in academia.



I´m glad about that.



mesogeiakos disse:


> You mention the difference between Seville and Palaiohora when the difference between Athens and Seville from Ian's thread is even less and last year Athens was warmer annually. Off course no one claims that 2 years of data can give a valid conclusion they just add to the long terms stats that want Attica warmest in Europe during the summer.



No, it adds data about some small points in Attica, being warmer in the summer than small points in Andalucia.
More simply put, Point B, warmer than point C, during X period, is then the realistic conclusion to be made.




mesogeiakos disse:


> I think you just take this way too serious ,



Sure, basing on your participation on other European foruns, during «years» period,  it´s me who takes this way too serious...




mesogeiakos disse:


> but it is understandable since it shows that Iberia at least from the available data from WMO stations is second best in terms of heat ,something which I have spotted more than a decade now.



Yes, you have spotted, but spare other people from your scattered claims and produce something more scientific and tangible. 





mesogeiakos disse:


> Empirically speaking I doubt something can or will change by just wishing it would or accusing Ian of bias when in fact the ''home made'' competition is the most systematic one in any European forum. Ok I get it that you would accuse me of bias, but Ian?



No one was accusing Ian of bias, stop placing things on the wrong context.
What was said is that basing climatological data only on certain spots can give us wrong and biased results. Simply because data is too scanty.
A point or B point, has small climatological representation in an entire land area such as Iberia, for example.
I hope you understand that for me, has small value about who´s in first, third or second, in summer average, according to scanty data, but what interests me the most, is climatology overall, this is my passion... I´m not Italian boy or Daedalus or whoever was debating against you in the past...


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## Ferreiro (12 Set 2011 às 15:45)

Hoje o servizo meteorologico nacional grego (HNMS) publicou os dados de Julho das estaçaos localizadas na cidade de Atenas, e como é habitual com elevadas temperaturas minimas, mas máximas que estao muito por debaixo das que temos no sur da pensinsula iberica, como tambem é habitual. 

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/climatology/climatology_html






As medias, uma vez calculadas com a formula simple de máxima+minima/2 sao:

Elefsina    29.4ºC
Helleniko   28.55ºC
Tatoi   27.05ºC
*Spata (aeroporto de Atenas)   26.09ºC *

As mínimas altas sao consecuencia da forte ilha de calor e nao da temperatura do mar. A proba está em que a estaçao do aeroporto de Atenas, localizada em Spata, que está fóra da cidade ainda que perto de Atenas, e com muita menor ilha de calor que as outras 3 (que estao localizadas em solo urbano), e perto do mar e somente a 72 metros de altitude tivo uma *temperatura media mínima em julho de **21.1ºC!!!! (com temperatura media do mes de 26.09ºC)* 

Misterio resolvido.

Outras temperaturas media de julho em Grecia:
Tanagra (é aeroporto da cidade de Tanagra, muito perto de Atenas) 27.0ºC
Herakleion (tambem é aeroporto, na ilha de Creta) 25.75ºC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rodos (ignoro se é aeroporto, acho que sim, na ilha asiática de Rodos) 27.6ºC


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## mesogeiakos (12 Set 2011 às 15:51)

Take it easy Belem i never said you are Dedalustutiempo or whoever. Meanwhile enjoy how the interior of Attica makes Cordoba look like London  and threatens Seville at the same time.

Here is Ian's table for the mean maxes so far  Pity the HNMS station of Filadelfeia,Athens was not running last year and especially last August. You would have seen the true heat beast Athens can become


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## Ferreiro (12 Set 2011 às 16:02)

Neste link do HNMS (serviço meteorologico nacional grego) podem ver os dados diarios do aeroporto de Atenas, localiçado em Spata (pequeno local na periferia de Atenas), ademas da localizaçao e altitude da estaçao. Podem comprobar como as temperaturas fóra da cidade sao muitisimo mais baijas que no interior da grande cidade, como é logico 

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/observation/observation_html?&dr_city=Spata_Athens_Airport

Lembrem, temperatura media simple de julho 2011 26ºC, media das mínimas de julho 2011 21ºC!!!!

Ainda queda muito para que o HNMS publique os dados de agosto, mais acho 25ºC em agosto 2011 no aeroporto de Atenas


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## mesogeiakos (12 Set 2011 às 16:07)

Ferreiro disse:


> Neste link do HNMS (serviço meteorologico nacional grego) podem ver os dados diarios do aeroporto de Atenas, localiçado em Spata (pequeno local na periferia de Atenas). Tambem podem comprobar como as temperaturas fóra da cidade sao muitisimo mais baijas que no interior da grande cidade, como é logico
> 
> http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/observation/observation_html?&dr_city=Spata_Athens_Airport
> 
> ...



Ferreiro stop bitching about and get over it.Athens gives you nightmares.Cry me a river about Spata which is the most exposed area of mainland Greece to the Meltemi winds or Florina if you want,Attica makes all of Europe watch 

Meanwhile this is the station of HNMS that will make you cry even more in terms of mean maxes.It has already made Cordoba cry 

FILADELFEIA,ATHENS HNMS .Located at the very interior of the Attica peninsula
http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/obs...?&dr_region=ObsAttiki&dr_city=ams_filadelfeia


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## belem (14 Set 2011 às 15:09)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Take it easy Belem i never said you are Dedalustutiempo or whoever.



I didn´t said it as well. It´s just an advice to you, that my interests are different.




mesogeiakos disse:


> Meanwhile enjoy how the interior of Attica makes Cordoba look like London  and threatens Seville at the same time.



Seville is warmer on year average, right?


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## mesogeiakos (19 Set 2011 às 00:59)

belem disse:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only marginally compared to coastal Attica with Athens Hellenikon having a mean annual of 18.5 while San Pablo has 18.7 from the long terms series.

While the whole of South and South East Greece, south of Mykonos and Santorini is warmer annually compared to Seville.Your point?


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## belem (19 Set 2011 às 13:15)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Only marginally compared to coastal Attica with Athens Hellenikon having a mean annual of 18.5 while San Pablo has 18.7 from the long terms series.
> 
> While the whole of South and South East Greece, south of Mykonos and Santorini is warmer annually compared to Seville.Your point?



My point is that I was asking if Seville is warmer annually than Athens.
Of course that in Spain there are warmer spots than Seville, annually as well.


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## mesogeiakos (20 Set 2011 às 03:25)

belem disse:


> My point is that I was asking if Seville is warmer annually than Athens.
> Of course that in Spain there are warmer spots than Seville, annually as well.




Which in any case will be cooler to Greece's warmest one's 

Btw here is the interesting data from Ian's thread and for the period the Filadelfeia station in Attica is working here are the highest mean maxes.Portugal is not doing well. While Sparta in the interior of Peloponnese from Greece is really  a good opponent for Andujar! Filadelfeia in Attica as well is not doing bad...But the interior of Crete with the Sivas station I believe has EVEN HIGHER MEAN MAX compared to Sparta from Greece....So next year's thread from Ian will be really interesting...

*The big news off course is the heat dynamic of the interior of Crete!Waiting to have official confirmation from the NOA bulletins but at least for June the Sivas station had Greece's highest mean maximum by far!I think Andujar will  start being really scared of Crete's summer heat.heheheh*






This one for Sparta! Apart from being a heroic historic city it is also heroic in terms of its summer heat 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qR0Uke2XNI"]300 - This is madness. This is Sparta.      - YouTube[/ame]


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## mesogeiakos (21 Set 2011 às 11:08)

So we have confirmation from N.O.A regarding the WMO station of Athens,Thiseio for July. The mean maximum was 34.9C and the mean minimum 25.1 the simple mean was once again 30C for Thiseio.*From 2001 till 2011 the simple mean of Thiseio for July for those 11 years is 30.0C exactly...this is outstanding and goes to show the extreme warming of South Europe during the summer...*

Most importantly we have confirmation regarding the Sivas stations in the interior of Crete from NOA.* It's mean maximum was a stunning 36.4C and was Greece's highest.*Still pending confirmation on whether the station is WMO.However I have a feeling it is. The interior of Crete is showing that it can really register huge temps.Again in June Sivas had Greece's highest mean maximum out of all HNMS and NOA stations....

Here is the data for Thiseio.If you can not see the picture let me know to add it as attachment


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## mesogeiakos (21 Set 2011 às 11:33)

And here is a view of Sivas in the interior of Southern Crete. As you can see the mountain ranges are probably responsible for the systematic phoen winds of Sivas that are giving it these extreme maxes. Sivas is defo comparable if not stronger to Andujar in terms of mean maxes in the summer,me thinks


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## belem (21 Set 2011 às 21:48)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Which in any case will be cooler to Greece's warmest one's  ]



Due to lack of enough data that can´t be extrapolated now. WMO stations aren´t positioned to measure data on  the warmest places. So when you have all this data, please come here to share it. I would be really pleased to see it.





mesogeiakos disse:


> Btw here is the interesting data from Ian's thread and for the period the Filadelfeia station in Attica is working here are the highest mean maxes.Portugal is not doing well.]




Portugal??? lol
Spare us from your fanatism. Portugal don´t have the same weather cover as Greece ( not even as Spain) on it´s warmest areas. So the results are obvious, who need to know what you think about it? Other thing is, Portugal isn´t interested on your patriotic affirmations based on zero  revelant data. 

By the way, why you don´t ask WMO scientists about what they think about your claims?
Will they say to you, that they are covering the warmest places, with their present data?


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## mesogeiakos (22 Set 2011 às 08:16)

belem disse:


> Due to lack of enough data that can´t be extrapolated now. WMO stations aren´t positioned to measure data on  the warmest places. So when you have all this data, please come here to share it. I would be really pleased to see it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Off course Greece does not have  a good coverage in its warmest areas and we have been through this again in the past so YOU SPARE US your ranting on Portugal being the poor child of meteorology.Who speaks of patriotic bullshit that you keep on implying?

Get your head straight mate and read what I wrote.I wrote that in mean maximums from Ian's thread Portugal is NOT DOING WELL. So what is all this moronic tantrum of patriotism?? Get your act straight mate and either read properly what I say or refrain from commenting. For all I care Amareleja which during the summer of 2011 seems to have Portugal's highest mean max is nothing next to the interior of Attica this year with Filadelfeia,Athens beating it by far.Hell, even the coastal airports of Elefsina and Hellenikon beat Amareleja in mean maxes this year.

Apart from that from the known WMO stations we have Greece beats each and every area that we currently have stations in Europe in terms of heat and I doubt that even if you plant each cm of Iberia with stations you dont stand a chance against Greece's means given the data and systematic knowledge we have from Greece's and Iberia's climatology.

PS. And since you mentioned you love moronic patriotism then you might wanna check out the last few minutes of Portugal bowing to Greece


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## belem (22 Set 2011 às 14:47)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Off course Greece does not have  a good coverage in its warmest areas and we have been through this again in the past so YOU SPARE US your ranting on Portugal being the poor child of meteorology..





Spare us from more your sad comparisons among coutries, and talk more about climatology based on factual data. If you solely have WMO data to compare on, just hope to see more opinions like mine. Because it´s a well known fact, WMO officers don´t do claims as yours and won´t support it either. And to ice the cake and support my point, Greece has more weather coverage data on it´s warmest areas than Portugal. 




mesogeiakos disse:


> Get your head straight mate and read what I wrote.I wrote that in mean maximums from Ian's thread Portugal is NOT DOING WELL.



My point remains.
When people used Faro, it was laughable that it didn´t got in last. Anyone who knows the Algarve climatology, think that´s laughable. 
Elvas, at around over 300 meters above sea level, was used as well, but more to come, soon!! 





mesogeiakos disse:


> So what is all this moronic tantrum of patriotism??




I don´t know, could you care to explain to me? It´s me that are in a thread of your country, using unconclusive data to explain that my country is warmer than yours ( with the condition that your country must be divided in parts, according to someone decision)? 




mesogeiakos disse:


> Get your act straight mate and either read properly what I say or refrain from commenting. For all I care Amareleja which during the summer of 2011 seems to have Portugal's highest mean max is nothing next to the interior of Attica this year with Filadelfeia,Athens beating it by far.Hell, even the coastal airports of Elefsina and Hellenikon beat Amareleja in mean maxes this year.]



Amareleja with it´s weather station located on a mountain/plains forest, it´s used on extreme warm climatology comparisons, just because according to IM has the  measured highest mean max, (even if IM itself is aware of the existance of warmer places)?? This leads to controversy, sorry, sir... And this tells everything how «well» covered is Portugal in therms of weather stations, because according to agrarian weather stations ( also rare unfortunately) Amareleja is beaten up seriously, and even if we are excluding the warmest areas ( maybe these weather stations could be verified and validated, who knows). But  Wow, this thread is getting hilarious... Forest and mountain, for the warmest spot during the summer of  continental Portugal, all the way! This is because only WMO says so! 




mesogeiakos disse:


> Apart from that from the known WMO stations we have Greece beats each and every area that we currently have stations in Europe in terms of heat and I doubt that even if you plant each cm of Iberia with stations you dont stand a chance against Greece's means given the data and systematic knowledge we have from Greece's and Iberia's climatology.



Could you post here all the scientific studies that lead you to think that  «continental» Iberia has enough «systematic knowledge» on it´s climatology to know that´s less warm than Greece?
Because, with that, you clearly couldn´t use only WMO data, if so, refrain to make more hilarious claims on weather foruns of other countries.





mesogeiakos disse:


> And since you mentioned you love moronic patriotism then you might wanna check out the last few minutes of Portugal bowing to Greece .



I did mentioned that I loved moronic patriotism? 
Sure, care to say where?
On the meanwhile, it´s just a pity that Greece couldn´t even qualify to be present on the next Euro... 
But let´s forget about soccer, land conquerings and let´s focus on this alarming thread of the 50ºc (!!!!) on Athens ( let´s hope it reaches 40ºc at least once on the next year!! ). 


PS: Honestly I´m surprised about your lack of sympathy. I´m used to get focused on the subject, but this time, I think that I was obliged to be a bit more sarcastic.


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## mesogeiakos (25 Set 2011 às 03:37)

belem disse:


> Spare us from more your sad comparisons among coutries, and talk more about climatology based on factual data. If you solely have WMO data to compare on, just hope to see more opinions like mine. Because it´s a well known fact, WMO officers don´t do claims as yours and won´t support it either. And to ice the cake and support my point, Greece has more weather coverage data on it´s warmest areas than Portugal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Spare us your moronic bs please mate I mean pls do!!!

Just bsc it serves your backward narrative that Portugal is the most underprivileged country in Europe due to lack of stations (oh poor Portugal,let me go make a donation to IP) in warm areas it means jack shit .

In case you forgot ,back in the UK forum I told you that no matter how much u bitch about Greece having super coverage to justify the fact that constantly Greece beats Portugal in warm climatology your moronic claims means zero.In case you forgot there are only two stations with long term data in South Crete with various warm areas of coastal Crete,surrounding Isles and Dodecanese areas without stations.Only this year we placed a new official station in the Messara Valley of Southern Crete and the Sivas station has already made Seville,San Pablo look like Antarctica in mean maxes for the WHOLE SUMMER TRIMESTER.So spare us your bitching mate and go cry us a river somewhere.... in Amareleja preferably? 

Meanwhile the systematic knowledge that comes from the WMO data from the long term series of Greek and Iberian climatology shows very clearly that Greece beats Iberia by far in warm climatology.Greece having recorded ALL the warm records in Europe plus having the highest means year round.So spare us your even more moronic claims of WMO not doing proper job to extract climatology info 

PS.Btw who cares for your internal Portuguese Faro/whatever fairy tales Who gives a crap mate?Spare us


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## 1337 (25 Set 2011 às 03:47)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Spare us your moronic bs please mate I mean pls do!!!
> 
> Just bsc it serves your backward narrative that Portugal is the most underprivileged country in Europe due to lack of stations (oh poor Portugal,let me go make a donation to IP) in warm areas it means jack shit .
> 
> ...



And who cares about ur greece mate? i just care in facts and u cant proove with true facts that greece its more hotter than IB. so spare us seriously


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## belem (25 Set 2011 às 04:16)

«Spare us your moronic bs please mate I mean pls do!!!»

Try to find tangible evidence for your claims. Less talk, more production.


«Just bsc it serves your backward narrative that Portugal is the most underprivileged country in Europe due to lack of stations (oh poor Portugal,let me go make a donation to IP) in warm areas it means jack shit .»

Post when you are sober.
Have a nice sleep before.


«In case you forgot ,back in the UK forum I told you that no matter how much u bitch about Greece having super coverage to justify the fact that constantly Greece beats Portugal in warm climatology your moronic claims means zero.In case you forgot there are only two stations with long term data in South Crete with various warm areas of coastal Crete,surrounding Isles and Dodecanese areas without stations.Only this year we placed a new official station in the Messara Valley of Southern Crete and the Sivas station has already made Seville,San Pablo look like Antarctica in mean maxes for the WHOLE SUMMER TRIMESTER.So spare us your bitching mate and go cry us a river somewhere.... in Amareleja preferably? »


Amareleja is fresh locally.
We all know that Greece has more cover on it´s warm areas. For example, just compare 2 variants, between the 2 countries: altitude average of the weather stations, number of weather stations and you´ll get a math answer. Math lies? Of course that lower altitude doesn´t always mean to be warmer, but it´s closer to it, I think.
I see that many warm areas are covered by weather stations in Greece, exactly the opposite of what happens in Portugal. This is due to different human occupation geographical model areas ( weather stations usually follow human activity...).


«Meanwhile the systematic knowledge that comes from the WMO data from the long term series of Greek and Iberian climatology shows very clearly that Greece beats Iberia by far in warm climatology.Greece having recorded ALL the warm records in Europe plus having the highest means year round.So spare us your even more moronic claims of WMO not doing proper job to extract climatology info »

Sure. Ask WMO, if they think that IP, have a good weather coverage on it´s warm areas. Go directly to your beloved source and try to learn something from it. On the meanwhile ask IM too, if they think that their weather stations give a nice idea about the warmest areas in Portugal. Do the same for Spain.


«PS.Btw who cares for your internal Portuguese Faro/whatever fairy tales Who gives a crap mate?Spare us»

Some people care and think that´s interesting to investigate, like all the members that did posted on the «clima do interior algarvio» thread. Afterall, this is a Portuguese weather forum.
Go there, say the same thing that you did said here and don´t waste more my time.

PS: I think that Algarve inland isn´t the warmest zone of continental Portugal.


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## mesogeiakos (25 Set 2011 às 18:28)

belem disse:


> Amareleja is fresh locally.
> We all know that Greece has more cover on it´s warm areas.
> 
> [/U]Portugal.




Sorry but you know jack shit for Greece's coverage!I mean seriously you keep on ranting about Greece having superb coverage when from WMO stations we have only 2 stations with long term data in South Crete!Come on snap out of ur dream narrative and watch Iberia bowing to Greece mate.EACH AND EVERY YEAR 

I told you mate and still you didnt get it.This year we placed a brand new station in one of the most extreme geo-morphological areas of South Crete and the outcome was that San Pablo for the JJAS is second best in mean maxes!Spare us!I did not even know about this that I follow Greek climatology like for ever and you are telling me that ''everyone knows'' what? jack shit probably right?


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## mesogeiakos (25 Set 2011 às 18:30)

1337 disse:


> And who cares about ur greece mate? i just care in facts and u cant proove with true facts that greece its more hotter than IB. so spare us seriously




Ok just see the long term means of WMO data plus Ian's threads and then you name ONE AREA in Iberia that is warmer annually than Greece or warmer during the summer.I am keen to hear it


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## belem (26 Set 2011 às 00:47)

mesogeiakos disse:


> Sorry but you know jack shit for Greece's coverage!I mean seriously you keep on ranting about Greece having superb coverage when from WMO stations we have only 2 stations with long term data in South Crete!



Where did I said that Greece had a superb coverage???
I did said that the warm regions in Greece have a better coverage, than Portugal (I see the same happening for Spain, just because it´s scaled up ( bigger country).And I already did explained why. Do you want it again?
In fact, we already did discussed this subject in this forum. Andre, one of the moderators, did provided very useful information.




mesogeiakos disse:


> Come on snap out of ur dream narrative and watch Iberia bowing to Greece mate.EACH AND EVERY YEAR



I would find interesting to know that Greece is warmer than continental Iberia, that actually wouldn´t make it any better, but I just can´t find the evidences yet. Everything still needs more data. 





mesogeiakos disse:


> I told you mate and still you didnt get it.This year we placed a brand new station in one of the most extreme geo-morphological areas of South Crete and the outcome was that San Pablo for the JJAS is second best in mean maxes!Spare us!I did not even know about this that I follow Greek climatology like for ever and you are telling me that ''everyone knows'' what? jack shit probably right?



Stop with the « jack shit», and «spare us», please.
I want to have a productive and educated discussion. I´m just interested in the truth and I´m fascinated about climatology.
I find very interesting to know that Crete did got another weather station, this is what interests me the most: to gather data about new places.
 So you are saying that station surpasses San Pablo in mean maxes for JJAS, so do you have any climatological data from that weather station? Because if you are only comparing data of few years, the results can be misleading.
Also, that Crete new station has pictures? It´s already WMO?
Thanks in advance.


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## Vince (26 Set 2011 às 00:52)

Bem, parece que o Verão acabou e Atenas não chegou aos 50ºC. Finalmente há uma justificação para encerrar este tópico que já cansa toda a gente de há muitos meses para cá, uma discussão que nunca conseguiu sair do labirinto em que se aprisionou. 

Votos de bom Inverno para todos, se vos apetecer, regressem ao tema ... no próximo Verão.


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