# The amazing annual mean temperatures of South Crete



## Mesogiakos (3 Dez 2012 às 10:29)

Well it's the first time we have 6 years of full free data for one of the warmest areas in Europe.This is the town of Palaiohora in the SW of Crete.

The annual mean temperature of the National Observatory of Athens station in Palaiohora for the 6 year period 2007-2012 is an amazing *20.7C*.

Mind you that the HNMS WMO station of Palaiohora is actually tradionally slightly warmer that the Davis station (PRO2 fan aspirated) of Palaiohora provided by the National Observatory.The annual mean temperature in Palaiohora from HNMS for the relevant period should be even higher and probably close to an amazing 20.8C or 20.9C

I ve looked around other areas in geographical Europe (obviously excluding outer most areas of Spain,Portugal,UK,France,Netherlands etc that are outside geo Europe) and there is no other area for the relevant period to go even close to the Palaiohora annual means.

Take notice of the 26.5C mean minimum for August (!) and especially the summer means.Close to 30.0C for July and August!

Below you can find the data.Only December 2012 is not there.I ll update the table accordingly after the 31st of December 2012.For the time being enjoy the *amazing *data of South Crete.

Here is the link of the station

http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/paleochora/

and here you can find all the data of the 217 N.O.A stations network (in Greek only but it's easy to navigate for non speakers)

http://penteli.meteo.gr/meteosearch/


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## stormy (3 Dez 2012 às 14:40)

Would you mind give us a presentation of the weather station?

Photos, exact location, instruments, etc..


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## Mesogiakos (3 Dez 2012 às 22:05)

Hmmm...there is nothing on the NOA site.The only info we have it's that it is a Davis fan aspirated.Besides it's not that important.The station seems spot on in terms of temperature accuracy as a Davis fan aspirated station and as I said the WMO station of Palaiohora from HNMS is even slightly warmer.

You can check here the HNMS station for consistency.

http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/observation/observation_html?&dr_region=ObsCrete&dr_city=Palaiohora

We had checked it with Ian over in the Ukww forum and we found it pretty consistent.For example yesterday the data from HNMS were 22.8C max 18.7 min and for the NOA station 22.6 max 17.6 min .You can check it daily for yourself to see that the HNMS is actually warmer.I am guessing a mean annual closer to *20.9C* from the WMO station for the relevant period...

I know the data might seem surprising for you guys in Portugal,but we are talking about a town in South Crete very very prone to fohn winds.Especially during the summer when the meltemi winds act as  constant fohn. South Crete (and Crete in general has a very special climate from place to place due to it's topography).

The data are extremely accurate and correct.No worries.

You can also check it against the other NOA  Davis fan aspirated station in Lentas again in South Crete.Here is the output for 2012

Palaiohora

http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/paleochora/NOAAYR.TXT

Lentas

http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/lentas/NOAAYR.TXT


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## belem (3 Dez 2012 às 22:45)

Interesting but not impressive.

And that´s not a climatic average, btw...


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 09:09)

obviously it's not a climatic average.It's just 6 years of data which gives us a better indication this time of why South Crete is the warmest area in Europe annually

 I think it's impressive for Europe's standards.Btw it also beats all the stations in Cyprus as well for the relevant period.


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## belem (4 Dez 2012 às 15:12)

Mesogiakos disse:


> obviously it's not a climatic average.It's just 6 years of data which gives us a better indication this time of why South Crete is the warmest area in Europe annually
> 
> I think it's impressive for Europe's standards.Btw it also beats all the stations in Cyprus as well for the relevant period.




Thanks for your data, it´s interesting, but I don´t have a clue about where´s the hottest spot in Europe. Do you have any pictures or more detailed informations about that weather station? In fact, there´s not even 1 scientific (peer reviewed) paper to confirm that´s warmest place in Europe, maybe because there´s not enough weather stations cover to make up such conclusions.

And also the old question about where are exactly the Europe geographical limits in both land and sea (maybe we are thinking in the Eurasian plate??), because that would be another challenge.

Even on the ocean, there are pretty warm areas for european standards due to the Gulf Stream nearly permanent effect. 

In fact, I know people who have found much more important things and with solid visible proof, than «where´s the Europe warmest place», but they didn´t released any key points to the public before being sure and publish it somewhere.

In my point of view, maybe it´s better just to stick on «in my opinion» level and «according to the data that I have found», then to try to «sell» your finding as something already proven and without a question...

Anyway, thanks again for the share, honestly I find it cool, though not really impressive and maybe in the future we´ll find out where it´s that place.


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 18:45)

No worries we can go through this again.

Yes off course we dont know the very exact place of the European hot spot since we dont have stations everywhere.According to the available data we have  however this is almost certainly in South Crete.We know for a fact that Palaiohora is the European hot-spot for the period I am quoting and from the station we have in geo Europe.

The station is spot on in terms of accuracy.No worries check my previous post.In fact the WMO station in Palaiohora is even warmer.As for the definition of Europe,well just you and I ll give you few more weather geeks from Portugal or Spain who will insist that any area outside the IP that is a part of Spain or Portugal is ''Europe'' geographically.But even they are isolated and minority opinions even in Portugal and Spain.The general consensus is that all the areas by Spain and Portugal outside IP are not in geo Europe,apart maybe from the Azores (very debatable but let's give it to you). So back in the real world South Crete beats the crap out of any area in geographical Europe and by far.

Enjoy the amazing data of Palaiohora for now which is obviously the warmest area of geo Europe at least for the relevant period according to stations we have.The nearest the IP can go is at least 1C-1.5C less in terms of mean annuals for the relevant period from the stations we have.Hope that about covers everything.


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## Ferreiro (4 Dez 2012 às 19:18)

Be careful guys!

They are not even official data. The Greek official service of meteorology is HNMS. On this link you can check the official and authentic Greek data: http://www.hnms.gr/hnms/english/index_html

On the other hand, the temperature averages are calculated over a period of 30 years, not 6 years!


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 19:22)

The data are ''authentic'' lol.

As I said the Palaiohora station from HNMS which is the official authority of Greece is even warmer.So it's kinda self-defeating from your part dedalus.If you want Palaiohora from HNMS fine by me.It beats the crap out of IP even more 

I was just posting this bsc they are easier to collect from the NOA site and it can give you a better idea of how much you can cry over South Crete...and yes obviously 6 years is not enough but still it beats the crap out of your beloved IP for that period 

What ever you do Ferreiro Greece will always haunt you in terms of it's heat!Athens in the summer ,Crete in the winter and annualy.Enjoy now and quit whining, I can even hear you from here crying.


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## Ferreiro (4 Dez 2012 às 19:26)

Mesogiakos disse:


> The data are ''authentic'' lol.
> 
> As I said the Palaiohora station from *HNMS which is the official authority of Greec*e is even warmer.So it's kinda self-defeating from your part dedalus.If you want Palaiohora from HNMS fine by me Ferreiro.It beats the crap out of IP even more
> 
> I was just posting this bsc they are easier to collect from NOA...and yes *obviously 6 years is not enough* but still it beats the crap out of your beloved IP for that period



You said it, 

Mad man!


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 19:34)

Ok now kneel before  South Crete


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## Ferreiro (4 Dez 2012 às 19:45)

When you give us authentic averages of 30 years of real and official weather stations we'll talk. Meanwhile, bye bye!


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 19:48)

Ok grow up in the meantime and stop trolling.South Crete makes you cry in the night we all know that.Athens also in the summer means.The data are accurate and coupled with HNMS station of Palaiohora which is official  gives u even bigger tantrums.


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## belem (4 Dez 2012 às 21:13)

Mesogiakos disse:


> No worries we can go through this again.
> 
> Yes off course we dont know the very exact place of the European hot spot since we dont have stations everywhere.According to the available data we have  however this is almost certainly in South Crete.We know for a fact that Palaiohora is the European hot-spot for the period I am quoting and from the station we have in geo Europe.
> 
> ...




Well, so you basically still have no evidence, apart from the scanty data that you have. Ok, I  understand your point and the basic problem of it.

This was already discussed before and led us to no conclusion, which only did gave reason to me, unfortunately.

You also take things too nervously and try to make things like a war, Greece vs Italy or Greece vs Iberian Peninsula, which is a really childish behavior in my opinion.  And you also evidently provoke people.

That´s not a scientific approach, however you presume that you are presenting things accurately...

I would find interesting if Crete is the warmest place in geographical Europe or compared with well further North continental Iberian Peninsula (if that sounds ok for you) but so far the evidence is clearly not enough.

Continental iberian peninsula, is further north, however the average temperatures can be surprisingly similar, having in mind the geographical differences. I remember that I already had a look on the Uk forum, that was surprised with the small differences between Crete and well further North places in Iberia... But for confirmation I need something more.

Anyone has the average temperatures of Seville for the same period of Palaiohora, for example (let´s say for those 6 years)? 

We all know already that there many warmer areas in Iberian Peninsula than Seville, so that it would be interesting to know it.

Anyway, we hope to end this discussion soon, since there´s no point about it.

And yes, even if weather data for the same period can be interesting, the ideal would be to have climatological data.

6 years is nothing compared with it and we all know, that each place has different cold and warm phases.


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 21:34)

And you on the other hand  why do u react on what you perceive is childish on my behalf?Is it because deep down you are reacting equally childish by trying to distort my points?

I have fun playing around with data.If I happen to nag someone,well tough!In fact I love being relentless against Ferreiro.So what?:People can crack a joke from time to time.No biggie

I said  myself 6 years is not that big of a deal.It does help however demonstrate better my ''childish'' thesis that in all probability South Crete is the warmest area of Europe.

I am not claiming some kind of pluralistic megalomania of scientific data.In fact just the opposite.I provided what I consider good and accurate data that support my claim without resorting to some academic tantrum.


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## belem (4 Dez 2012 às 22:02)

Mesogiakos disse:


> And you on the other hand  why do u react on what you perceive is childish on my behalf?Is it because deep down you are reacting equally childish by trying to distort my points?
> 
> I have fun playing around with data.If I happen to nag someone,well tough!In fact I love being relentless against Ferreiro.So what?:People can crack a joke from time to time.No biggie
> 
> ...




Well, I´m trying to have rational debate, it´s just that.

You know (and nearly everyone here did understood) what I meant with childish.

If you think that´s a not child behavior, I´m ok with it.

I don´t want to distort anything, I want to be cautious.

Your debates with Ferreiro are even funny, that was not my point.

Well, your data is interesting, but in my opinion, you´ll have a long way to prove your point. 

Yes, point B can be warmer than point A, during R period, but it´s that and only that, unless Iberia and Greece are 5 m2.


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 22:41)

Ok while you are done playing with words the fact remains that there is no other area warmer than Palaiohora for the relevant period in geo Europe from the stations we have...And there wont be one... at least outside South Crete.

See?I knew we could reach an agreement


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## Lousano (4 Dez 2012 às 22:42)

Mesogiakos, pede para alguém retirar uma fotos da estação, de forma a retirar dúvidas se será de estudo urbano ou climático.


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 22:46)

It's a 2000 people town/village.It cant really be ''urban''.If you can find pics from the NOA site let me know ,I am searching for those too,I had no luck.No worries.The data seem pretty good and accurate if we contrast them with the other stations in South Crete both from HNMS and NOA.


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## Lousano (4 Dez 2012 às 22:58)

Mesogiakos disse:


> It's a 2000 people town/village.It cant really be ''urban''.If you can find pics from the NOA site let me know ,I am searching for those too,I had no luck.No worries.The data seem pretty good and accurate if we contrast them with the other stations in South Crete both from HNMS and NOA.



Eu resido em Lousã, uma vila em Portugal. Tenho a minha estação meteorológica e nada tem de semelhante co a do INM, por a minha estar dentro da localidade, apesar de estar cerca de 20 metros do solo.

Se estiver dentro da localidade pode ter temperaturas superiores a 2ºC, algo que  eu verifico através do veículo e a altitudes superiores ou inferiores em zonas rurais. (raramente encontro no Verão valores superiores nessas zonas, o que levo a pensar que o efeito seja o urbanismo).

Isto serve apenas de exemplo.


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 23:03)

I think the Davis fan aspirated stations are really good in solving this issue to be honest.They are very accurate in temperature sensitivities provided they are correctly installed .As I said if you compare the daily data between Palaiohora (NOA) and Palaiohora (HNMS) stations they are very compatible albeit the later being slightly warmer.

Anyways I think we are splitting hair here.It's a big village actually.Not really urban with really remarkable climatological conditions due to it's amazing topography.If you check pictures of the town of Palaiohora you will see how complex terrain ,with mountains ,hills etc it is.It's fascinating!

The data I believe are pretty good and accurate.


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## Lousano (4 Dez 2012 às 23:10)

Mesogiakos disse:


> I think the Davis fan aspirated stations are really good in solving this issue to be honest.
> .



A minha estação não é uma Davis, mas é "fan aspirated" e não creio que irá resolver o problema porque o veículo vai em "grande movimento" e revela esse problema.

Seja como for, penso em breve resolver esse teu problema do Davis "fan aspirated).


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 23:13)

Lousano disse:


> A minha estação não é uma Davis, mas é "fan aspirated" e não creio que irá resolver o problema porque o veículo vai em "grande movimento" e revela esse problema.
> 
> Seja como for, penso em breve resolver esse teu problema do Davis "fan aspirated).



Ok then the other station from HNMS,the WMO accredited one has ''solved'' it...and surprise surprise it's even warmer.What can the 10 vehicles that pass every 20 minutes from the centre of Palaiohora can do?And the station is not even in the center. Come on it's a big village.No urban heat island ,not full of vehicles etc 

Unless all the stations in Palaiohora are crap then I dont see a reason to debate the obvious.Come on.It's South Crete you guys.Off course it will rock


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## Lousano (4 Dez 2012 às 23:19)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Ok then the other station from HNMS,the WMO accredited one has ''solved'' it...and surprise surprise it's even warmer.
> 
> Unless all the stations in Palaiohora are crap then I dont see a reason to debate the obvious.Come on.It's South Crete you guys.Off course it will rock



Não disse nada disso.

Eu não conheço essa estação, não tenho nada contra, muito menos denegri-la.

Apenas quero saber se é uma estação dentro da localidade, ou como outra climática, a cerca de 2/3 km da localidade.


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 23:23)

I know it's in the town.The traffic is really low though.If you check the camera one car passes every 20-30 minutes?Sometimes it takes an hour for a car to pass through.Not to mention during the night.It's like deserted area in the night lol.

Anyways it's just 2000 people living in the broader area.Nothing much.A village.


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## 1337 (4 Dez 2012 às 23:27)

you are talking about an island, we can talk about canary islands to and i dont care if is part of europe or not, is part of spain like crete is part of greece..


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 23:29)

Ok you and 3-4 people in Spain or Portugal will hear you.The rest of  the people know that Canaries are in Africa and Crete in Europe.See?Puzzle solved.

Why dont we include the French Polynesia as well then? It's a part of France haha.


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## Lousano (4 Dez 2012 às 23:39)

Mesogiakos disse:


> I know it's in the town.The traffic is really low though.If you check the camera one car passes every 20-30 minutes?Sometimes it takes an hour for a car to pass through.Not to mention during the night.It's like deserted area in the night lol.
> 
> Anyways it's just 2000 people living in the broader area.Nothing much.A village.



Se residem no local 2000 pessoas e é um local extremamente turístico, existem 2/3 mais edifícios que numa localidade pouco turística.

Não quero denegrir os valores que apresenta essa estação.

É uma estação urbana e os valores têm de ser considerados dessa forma.

Não vejo o problema, mas acho estranho o teu entusiasmo de negação desse facto.


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## Mesogiakos (4 Dez 2012 às 23:53)

I doubt it has an impact on the station.Besides the HNMS station is even warmer and it is a WMO station.

I dont believe that small town of 2000 people will have any impact even if the station in the very centre.The data are good I think.Very good actually


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## Lousano (5 Dez 2012 às 00:09)

Mesogiakos disse:


> I doubt it has an impact on the station.Besides the HNMS station is even warmer and it is a WMO station.
> 
> I dont believe that small town of 2000 people will have any impact even if the station in the very centre.The data are good I think.Very good actually



Nós aqui criticamos vivamente as estações do INM por falta de manutenção, localização, etc., mas temos a noção que nos encontramos num país com poucos meios monetários.

Vens aqui festejar algo que nem seria algo de crítica por aqui, porque é uma estação dedicada à sua função climática.

Em relação à estação da HNMS é também totalmente desconhecida.

Tens alguma críticas, comentários dos residentes locais sobre essas estações? Poderão estar colocadas numa rua ou jardim da localidade? Têm manutenção frequente?


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## belem (5 Dez 2012 às 01:01)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Ok while you are done playing with words the fact remains that there is no other area warmer than Palaiohora for the relevant period in geo Europe from the stations we have...And there wont be one... at least outside South Crete.



There won´t be? 

I wouldn´t be that confident, mostly when lacking proof.

And honestly and sincerely, who cares, since there´s not enough data to conclude anything apart from my rational play with words, that A or B is not the entire universe in question. 

Curiously, me and more people from this forum, already had a discussion, about which are the warmest areas in Portugal, during the summer. Firstly, we had to cross several different data, to locate the places with the best probabilities to reach big values. Many things confused us, such as lack of nearby weather stations (Portugal actually has lack of it in many places, compared with many countries) soil constitution, mountain chains, the fact that some places are much better to hold high night temperatures than the others and so on... The conclusion were that only after measuring weather data from several locations (that were identified by the probability study), we could increase the probabilities of having a clearer view (still not a conclusion that could take 30 years to be made).



So, I´m just applying with your European comparison, the same conclusion that I applied for Portugal. It´s nothing new and it´s terribly basic and simple.  And for such big areas, as entire peninsulas, the limitations could only be even bigger!

We know what are the present known places from the IM weather stations with higher summer temperatures, but we would be lying to ourselves to say that they are the warmest places in Portugal in the summer.

The difference suggested by the probability studies, actually is so big, that the differences can be considered even laughable.

It´s a completely different environment,  proven by a completely different vegetation composition and soil constitution...

Hum... I don´t see what´s the point of having an agreement, when what´s essential, is in disagreement.


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## Mesogiakos (5 Dez 2012 às 06:11)

Lousano disse:


> Nós aqui criticamos vivamente as estações do INM por falta de manutenção, localização, etc., mas temos a noção que nos encontramos num país com poucos meios monetários.
> 
> Vens aqui festejar algo que nem seria algo de crítica por aqui, porque é uma estação dedicada à sua função climática.
> 
> ...



You can find out what locals say about South Crete here.

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...07-2012-mean-annual-temperatures/page__st__40

There is a local who comments on the topography and the characteristics of the area etc.He is from Lentas another very warm smaller village of South Crete.

Obviously you could criticize a station.I am simply saying the data from all the neighbouring stations are consistent and accurate.I mean they cant be all crap stations.Use ur common sense.Come on it's South Crete


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## Mesogiakos (5 Dez 2012 às 06:18)

belem disse:


> There won´t be?
> 
> I wouldn´t be that confident, mostly when lacking proof.
> 
> ...



I am not drawing any definitive conclusion.I also agreed that 6 years is not much.It is  a conviction obviously but the data support better this possibility.

They show us much better the amazing local conditions of South Crete.In fact Palaiohora in  June 2007 did not drop below 36C (!) for 36 hours and this was shown by both stations!!!Actually the second HNMS station (at that time they were 2 HNMS stations in Palaiohora) did not drop below 38C for 24 hours because of the constant and very strong winds that were blowing for 2 days non stop.It was an amazing phenomenon of South Crete in an amazing summer.The daily mean on these days was 40C and 39C respectively 

The complex topography of the area and the constant foehn winds make it ideal to be the European hot spot until we find an even more extreme one which in any case would be again somewhere in South Crete.


http://penteli.meteo.gr/meteosearch/data/paleochora/2007-06.txt


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## Mesogiakos (5 Dez 2012 às 06:36)

Speaking of the summer check out how Greek stations behaved nationally in the amazing last summer.The warmest summer EVER for Greece.

http://www.meteopt.com/forum/europa/will-athens-experience-warmest-summer-ever-europe-6640.html

Here is the table for Athens for the July mean maxes the last 30 years.An increase of 0.9C from 1971-2000 means. *34C *being the climatic average,which is pretty good just 5km from the sea!


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## belem (5 Dez 2012 às 13:24)

Mesogiakos disse:


> I am not drawing any definitive conclusion.I also agreed that 6 years is not much.It is  a conviction obviously but the data support better this possibility.
> 
> They show us much better the amazing local conditions of South Crete.In fact Palaiohora in  June 2007 did not drop below 36C (!) for 36 hours and this was shown by both stations!!!Actually the second HNMS station (at that time they were 2 HNMS stations in Palaiohora) did not drop below 38C for 24 hours because of the constant and very strong winds that were blowing for 2 days non stop.It was an amazing phenomenon of South Crete in an amazing summer.The daily mean on these days was 40C and 39C respectively
> 
> ...




Yes, that´s very interesting, many thanks for the share.

That reminds me of heat extreme events. We can expect really unusual temperatures to occur.
´
Regarding the average values for Palaiohora, I see nice low temps, but not so impressive high temps.

To form a definitive opinion, about where´s the hottest spot in South Europe, I would need a lot more data. But that particular location in South Crete is surely one of the warmest. Presently probably the warmest known. But that doesn´t mean that´s the warmest and that we have definitive evidence about it.


I´m not saying that´s warmer, but I have seen a location in Spain (close to Murcia? Not sure now, but I´ll try to find the data), with average low temps, for the 2 warmest months, of about 26ºc.

I think that this weather station, is one of those that you think that it shouldn´t be taken in account, etc, etc... But I would like to know more details about it.
Maybe there´s something true on it, who knows...

I think that places with surrounding rocky soils, are usually better to hold temperatures at night. Chalky soils in particular, are very good for that, but it aren´t the only ones.

Local winds and the orography design, of course, are very important as well.

I know a place in the south coast of Arrabida mountain, that whenever I visited it during the summer (sometimes at very late hours of the night), it was surprisingly warm at night (up to 25ºc and sometimes even more) with some nearly constant dry warm wind gusts, when some other places in the area, were having a moderate amene night ( some parts of north side were actually with almost or none wind and dew was depositing on the plant leaves).

Local weather data however, didn´t covered these values, since there´s no weather station there and the closest one, was having very different data.

So this is just an example, about how even so further north and close to the ocean (with upwelling currents), nights can be relatively warm.

In some areas of this mountain but more inland and at low altitude, I have also experienced incredibly high values.


Here it´s the aspect of Arrabida mountain (on your right):








Much further North, but also inland, surrounded by big mountains and at low altitude of the Coa valley, for example, which I did visited in October, the valley floor was fresh at night, especially when faced to the North, but when you move just 10 meters above, it´s like being in a completely different place (much warmer). However, the daily highs up there ( just about 10 meters above the valley floor level) during the day, were and are  pretty high as well.

Then, local microclimates, can turn this subject very, very complex.

Thanks anyway, for bringing up the also fascinating Crete example.

Just as curiosity, that place have sea turtles nesting? Or it had on the past?


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## Ferreiro (5 Dez 2012 às 15:15)

Viewing the web of NOA weather observatories (which are not official, and are therefore not accepted neither by the Greek weather service HNMS nor by the World Meteorological Organization), most of the NOA network stations are located on rooftops/terraces/balconys of buildings where are the offices of the local councils. That is the poor quality of the NOA network of weather stations.

On the other hand, Southern Crete is at a latitude of 34 degrees North, which equals the latitude of Morocco in the Western Mediterranean. At the same latitude, the Iberian peninsula is clearly warmer than Greece.


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## Mesogiakos (6 Dez 2012 às 05:45)

belem disse:


> Yes, that´s very interesting, many thanks for the share.
> 
> That reminds me of heat extreme events. We can expect really unusual temperatures to occur.
> ´
> ...



Well 33.4C as a mean maximum for an area just 50-100 meters from the sea is something interesting you know.You wont see that often in European coasts apart maybe from the Attica peninsula and the extreme East Islands of Greece close to the Turkish coasts.

Now regarding the  data of a 26C mean minimum in IP this is simply out of the question.Probably you are referring to that town where one automatic station (probably a non fan aspirated crappy one) had a mean annual of 21C and the other AEMET one in the same town was 17C. Or maybe you are referring to Cuevas Del Almazora bsc those data were also totally crap.Check out its new Davis Pro 2 Fan Aspirated to see the totally weak minimums and how crappy these data were.
http://www.cuevasdelalmanzora.org/fran1.html

The IP simply can not achieve the mean minimums of Greece, Italy and East Med in the summer.It's nearly impossible even if we take into account some kind of a super microclimate that might see higher minimums than the rest IP (debatable as to how much it can reach Greece's ''normal'' summer behavior in the minimums but let's give it to you).The IP can manage these minimums for only up to a few days in strong  heatwaves  and then it decreases dramatically compared to Greece.

I have no idea about the sea turtles though.I do recall that a specific kind was living near Gavdos island and somewhere near the south coasts of the Messara valley (near Lentas area) but nothing much tbh.

Obviously the local climates is something very interesting everywhere in the world.In fact this is even more interesting in Crete.You can go between very close areas and see dramatic temp differences.This is defo the strongest characteristic of Crete due to its extreme topography and geo morphology.Check out regularly the stations of Crete from the NOA site  or HNMS to see how differently each area behaves.It is fascinating trust me!I even learn new stuff  everyday and I am studying Greece's climatology the past 15 years.The reason why Palaiohora behaves as such is that it is surrounded and perfectly sheltered by mountains and hills.A panoramic pic of Palaiohora will help you see that.In the summer the prevailing and almost constant famous Meltemi winds (North winds) that blow in Greece make the South coasts of Crete receive warm winds as they travel through the mountains and hills giving this almost constant foehn day and night.Coupled with the town's extreme south location sheltered by the hills,mountains and warm waters of the Libyan sea you get to have these amazing minimums.At the same time the North coast during events of strong south winds get some hellish temps be it summer or winter.The North coasts can easily see up to 30C or above even in January when strong South winds blow from the Sahara again due to the foehn effect reversed this time.Not to mention the interior of the  Messara valley where it has constantly extremely high mean maxes year round (for example the Sivas station of NOA last July had a mean maximum of 38.2C) since it is surrounded by mountains both from the South and North so you kinda have a double foehn effect there practically from any direction the wind blows but the minimums there are much weaker (even chilly for Greece's summer standards) since we dont have the moderating effect of the sea.

All in all the climatology of Crete is pretty amazing.Check it out.You will become addicted if you start studying it.Thank god we now have the more extended coverage from NOA so we can see these amazing differences.


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## Mesogiakos (6 Dez 2012 às 05:50)

Ferreiro disse:


> Viewing the web of NOA weather observatories (which are not official, and are therefore not accepted neither by the Greek weather service HNMS nor by the World Meteorological Organization), most of the NOA network stations are located on rooftops/terraces/balconys of buildings where are the offices of the local councils. That is the poor quality of the NOA network of weather stations.
> 
> On the other hand, Southern Crete is at a latitude of 34 degrees North, which equals the latitude of Morocco in the Western Mediterranean. At the same latitude, the Iberian peninsula is clearly warmer than Greece.



That is why we double check the Palaiohora data against the HNMS station there.As I said the WMO station is even slightly warmer with minimal differences from the NOA one.No worries the data of the particular station are pretty accurate no matter how much you cry and bitch about.We have established this in Greek forums and conversations with the locals there,we know the Palaiohora,Lentas and other stations in South Crete from NOA are dead serious and accurate.The Palaiohora WMO station should be closer to *20.8C or 20.9C* mean annual for that period so you get that for official dealings.In fact I dont mind one bit if you prefer the HNMS station as it destroys even more your beloved IP lol.

Besides that data I presented from NOA are just indicative and easier for everyone to see for the annual heat of S.Crete so this way you can cry even more and in a more straightforward way about South Crete .Wake up dedalus.South Crete beats the crap out of any location of Spain in the IP and you know that. Also remember how beautifully I deconstructed the argument that during the summer IP is warmer than Greece.Nah nah girl .Greece and especially the Attica peninsula can make the warmest area of the IP seem like the North Pole in summer means.Even Palaiohora beats Seville in the above period.Deal with it, Greece's climatology will always makes you cry your balls out be it summer or winter lol


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## belem (6 Dez 2012 às 15:10)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Well 33.4C as a mean maximum for an area just 50-100 meters from the sea is something interesting you know.You wont see that often in European coasts apart maybe from the Attica peninsula and the extreme East Islands of Greece close to the Turkish coasts.
> 
> Now regarding the  data of a 26C mean minimum in IP this is simply out of the question.Probably you are referring to that town where one automatic station (probably a non fan aspirated crappy one) had a mean annual of 21C and the other AEMET one in the same town was 17C. Or maybe you are referring to Cuevas Del Almazora bsc those data were also totally crap.Check out its new Davis Pro 2 Fan Aspirated to see the totally weak minimums and how crappy these data were.
> http://www.cuevasdelalmanzora.org/fran1.html
> ...




Well, I´l put here the graph later on when I have more time.
Yes, I agree about the minimums.
About the rest, we already know what happens.





Mesogiakos disse:


> Obviously the local climates is something very interesting everywhere in the world.In fact this is even more interesting in Crete.You can go between very close areas and see dramatic temp differences.This is defo the strongest characteristic of Crete due to its extreme topography and geo morphology.Check out regularly the stations of Crete from the NOA site  or HNMS to see how differently each area behaves.It is fascinating trust me!I even learn new stuff  everyday and I am studying Greece's climatology the past 15 years.The reason why Palaiohora behaves as such is that it is surrounded and perfectly sheltered by mountains and hills.A panoramic pic of Palaiohora will help you see that.In the summer the prevailing and almost constant famous Meltemi winds (North winds) that blow in Greece make the South coasts of Crete receive warm winds as they travel through the mountains and hills giving this almost constant foehn day and night.Coupled with the town's extreme south location sheltered by the hills,mountains and warm waters of the Libyan sea you get to have these amazing minimums.At the same time the North coast during events of strong south winds get some hellish temps be it summer or winter.The North coasts can easily see up to 30C or above even in January when strong South winds blow from the Sahara again due to the foehn effect reversed this time.Not to mention the interior of the  Messara valley where it has constantly extremely high mean maxes year round (for example the Sivas station of NOA last July had a mean maximum of 38.2C) since it is surrounded by mountains both from the South and North so you kinda have a double foehn effect there practically from any direction the wind blows but the minimums there are much weaker (even chilly for Greece's summer standards) since we dont have the moderating effect of the sea.
> 
> All in all the climatology of Crete is pretty amazing.Check it out.You will become addicted if you start studying it.Thank god we now have the more extended coverage from NOA so we can see these amazing differences.




Yes, Crete is also interesting.

What´s the average for January in Sivas?


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## Mesogiakos (6 Dez 2012 às 19:41)

Have no idea on averages.It's new station.I know it has high maxes but low minimums compared to the coast.This is year round.


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## J.S. (15 Dez 2012 às 22:20)

Mesogiakos disse:


> The data are ''authentic'' lol.
> 
> As I said the Palaiohora station from HNMS which is the official authority of Greece is even warmer.So it's kinda self-defeating from your part dedalus.If you want Palaiohora from HNMS fine by me.It beats the crap out of IP even more
> 
> ...



Seems like the climate of your contry is some extension of your person. Like you are proud of some weather in some part of the world. I am not amazed at all by any data actually. They are either faulty or a logical function of geography, lattitude and other local and global conditions combined. They are perfectly explainable. So why would one be amazed?  That is precisely what people do over here for example to find out what the hottest place in Portugal is: they look for indications that logically would indicate some ideal position for cold/warm etc weather.

To me it makes sense that the average temperatures will be highest in a relatively souterhn lattitude close to a sea that warms up easily. That likely what happens on Grek Islands and somethinglike a føhnwind etc could explain an extra push in temperature. Whatever it is, it is logical that average will be higher in the eastern meditterenean. 

For extreme temperatures you need land. The more land, the more extreme cut off by the sea it is the extremer it gets unless there are some dampening factors (like tropical continental areas). That is why daytime maxima in Iberia in lowlying souterhly inland places are higher than anywhere else in Europe and also why minima in teh same places are lower. The amplitude in Portuguese inland station in the south is particularly large it seems. But this may be also true in the Guadalquivir-region outside big cities (but when I checked, the amplitude seems smaller though). 

So for people who like extreme amplitudes and constant high daytimemaxima, the Iverian peninsula and the Guadalquivir region especially seems the place to be. For those who are fond of high averages or high minima it may be other parts in the eastern med.


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## belem (21 Dez 2012 às 19:47)

I do honestly still doubt about where are the highest averages.


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## Mesogiakos (23 Dez 2012 às 07:38)

J.S. disse:


> That is why daytime maxima in Iberia in lowlying souterhly inland places are higher than anywhere else in Europe and also why minima in teh same places are lower.



Well as always you cant be sure when u deal with Greece.As of recent two areas have really shown their true colors.One of which u might already know if you took basic history in school.Yes it's Sparta.The heroic rival of ancient Athens.The second is the valley of Messara in South Crete and particularly Sivas.Both beat Seville the past two years that they operate (at the same time) in mean maxes during the summer.

Check Sparta out for example

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...ver-in-europe/page__view__findpost__p__826719

The 4 year  July mean max for Sparta is *36.3C* and for August is *36.2C.*You might be right about Guadalquivir but I think Sparta beats any area in Portugal in my opinion.Sparta's 20 year July mean max was *34.5C * according to HNMS and that during a decade with very chilly summers in Greece.Sparta should be at least on par or warmer than Seville in terms of summer mean maxes I believe.


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## Mesogiakos (23 Dez 2012 às 07:40)

belem disse:


> I do honestly still doubt about where are the highest averages.



You shouldnt. Annually it's South Crete and with a big difference from all the rest.It's pretty obvious basically.


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## belem (23 Dez 2012 às 13:57)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Well as always you cant be sure when u deal with Greece.As of recent two areas have really shown their true colors.One of which u might already know if you took basic history in school.Yes it's Sparta.The heroic rival of ancient Athens.The second is the valley of Messara in South Crete and particularly Sivas.Both beat Seville the past two years that they operate (at the same time) in mean maxes during the summer.
> 
> Check Sparta out for example
> 
> ...




Don´t forget about Guadiana, East Tagus, East Douro daily maximum in summer (and even average), just to give some examples.


As we already pointed out, it´s very difficult to make conclusions when weather data is so scarce, and when everything points out that we could be wrong.


According to IM estimations, for even older climatological periods, Sparta is not a match. Of course that the most interesting thing it would be comparing data from several weather stations with 30 years of observations (or more).




Mesogiakos disse:


> You shouldnt. Annually it's South Crete and with a big difference from all the rest.It's pretty obvious basically.



I wish it was.

I already did put some questions on this thread, but it were somewhat ignored or simply overlooked...

So where are the observations for Seville, from the last years?

On UK forum, it were surprisingly close to Crete (though below).


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## Mesogiakos (23 Dez 2012 às 17:10)

belem disse:


> Sparta is not a match.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh yes Sparta is a match.From the available data I doubt that any area in Portugal can beat it.I can also ''estimate'' ,re ''estimate'' or cry my balls out but Sparta will be a tough one for Portugal to beat 

As for Seville.Spare me.Go to Ogimet and see for your self.South Crete beats the crap out of it for the relevant period.It's not a matter of ''wishing''.On the UK forum it was ''surprisingly'' close since last year was the colder on record for Palaiohora since records began for the NOA station and one of the warmest for Seville.It's a fact that South Crete simply rules,I am not gonna do the research for u.Calculate the Seville means from Ogimet and see how Seville is nothing compared to South Crete


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## belem (23 Dez 2012 às 17:54)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Oh yes Sparta is a match.From the available data I doubt that any area in Portugal can beat it.I can also ''estimate'' ,re ''estimate'' or cry my balls out but Sparta will be a tough one for Portugal to beat
> 
> As for Seville.Spare me.Go to Ogimet and see for your self.South Crete beats the crap out of it for the relevant period.It's not a matter of ''wishing''.On the UK forum it was ''surprisingly'' close since last year was the colder on record for Palaiohora since records began for the NOA station and one of the warmest for Seville.It's a fact that South Crete simply rules,I am not gonna do the research for u.Calculate the Seville means from Ogimet and see how Seville is nothing compared to South Crete




Let´s keep the discussion informative and educated, please.

Well, the study that I´m talking about is official and it was publicated.

And we already had a discussion around it, on this forum.

Even Campo Maior, a fresh location in North Alentejo (open land, not valley) got a bit over 34ºc for the warmest month (climatological average).

A place close to Alcoutim, Moura, etc...; the same story... 34ºc is nothing special, in my opinion.
About Seville, I was just trying to compare data from the last years, since you are active in UK forum, I thought that you would know something about it.
On some ocasions that I had a look on it (fortunately I have more important things to do), Seville was doing surprisingly fine.

Having in mind that Seville isn´t the warmest place in continental Iberia, that would turn the subject a bit more interesting.


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## Mesogiakos (23 Dez 2012 às 19:49)

belem disse:


> Let´s keep the discussion informative and educated, please.




And we do that is why we try and compare data.A random single study does not say anything per se.I am also not sure that Sparta is the hottest in Greece in terms of summer mean maxes .Other areas might be and especially around the interior of Sparta valley can be even hotter.

However from the *real available *data at hand and for the past 4 years that the station in Sparta is recording I highly doubt that there is a single station in Portugal with a *36.3C* mean maximum for July for that same period.If there is one you can give us the data to compare.I also have a scientific study for Athens saying that the mean max in 50 years in July will be 41C.So what?We need the real hard data at hand.

As for Seville not being the warmest.Well the same applies for Palaiohora in Greece.However from the available data so far and for the specific period Palaiohora is to date the warmest known in Europe and with a big difference from any other area.Especially compared to IP.

Let's us not beat around the bushes here.South Crete is simply unbeatable in annual means in Europe.


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## belem (23 Dez 2012 às 21:51)

Mesogiakos disse:


> And we do that is why we try and compare data.A random single study does not say anything per se.I am also not sure that Sparta is the hottest in Greece in terms of summer mean maxes .Other areas might be and especially around the interior of Sparta valley can be even hotter.
> 
> However from the *real available *data at hand and for the past 4 years that the station in Sparta is recording I highly doubt that there is a single station in Portugal with a *36.3C* mean maximum for July for that same period.If there is one you can give us the data to compare.I also have a scientific study for Athens saying that the mean max in 50 years in July will be 41C.So what?We need the real hard data at hand.



The study, like I said, was about older climatological references, not about the future.
For instance it was about 60-90 period. On the study they did measured data on several places, to make simple math correlations. And they did studied another huge amount of factors.
So, the raw scientific data that we have at hand, strongly suggests that the current weather station informations, are clearly not enough to let us make any conclusion about where are the warmest spots in Portugal, Iberia or Europe.



Mesogiakos disse:


> As for Seville not being the warmest.Well the same applies for Palaiohora in Greece.However from the available data so far and for the specific period Palaiohora is to date the warmest known in Europe and with a big difference from any other area.Especially compared to IP.



At least, the regions warmer than Seville, were already located and the reasons behind it, were already presented on this forum.
So if you know where are the warmer areas than Palaiohora, please present it here, and the reasons behind it.



Mesogiakos disse:


> However from the available data so far and for the specific period Palaiohora is to date the warmest known in Europe and with a big difference from any other area.Especially compared to IP.



Especially compared with IP? Care to elaborate?


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## Mesogiakos (23 Dez 2012 às 23:00)

belem disse:


> The study, like I said, was about older climatological references, not about the future.



Which is only an indication  and not real data open to scrutiny as this case could be for various areas in Greece.In short no real data suggest than any area in Portugal can beat Sparta in mean maxes.If you have any u can show us.

As for Palaiohora,obviously it has managed to beat each and every station from the IP from the real data and not from wishful thinking or generic estimations of what if.Any area in the south coast of Crete can potentially be annually hotter than Palaiohora.We are talking about an extremely complex island geomoprhologically which has shown that it can manage from 30's in January to 21C+ mean annual temps.Actually 2012 will also be a year of 21C+ mean annual in Palaiohora!

South Crete is obviously the leader in Europe which is clearly shown from the real data at hand.If you have any other area beating Palaiohora shows us the data


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## Ferreiro (23 Dez 2012 às 23:14)

Do not follow this crazy game. This mad greek is not interested in meteorology, the proof is that he never adds nothing, just repeated over and over again the same nonsense. His data are not official data nor are standard periods of 30 years. His data are not worth for nothing. No professional would lose his time with this trash.


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## Mesogiakos (23 Dez 2012 às 23:44)

Ferreiro disse:


> Do not follow this crazy game. This mad greek is not interested in meteorology, the proof is that he never adds nothing, just repeated over and over again the same nonsense. His data are not official data nor are standard periods of 30 years. His data are not worth for nothing. No professional would lose his time with this trash.



Ok thank you for your contribution.We know that u have a deep psychological scar when Greece is concerned (and I can proudly say that I caused it to you lol).Now you can go cry somewhere else that South Crete beats by far ur beloved IP


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## belem (24 Dez 2012 às 12:29)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Which is only an indication  and not real data open to scrutiny as this case could be for various areas in Greece.In short no real data suggest than any area in Portugal can beat Sparta in mean maxes.If you have any u can show us.
> 
> As for Palaiohora,obviously it has managed to beat each and every station from the IP from the real data and not from wishful thinking or generic estimations of what if.Any area in the south coast of Crete can potentially be annually hotter than Palaiohora.We are talking about an extremely complex island geomoprhologically which has shown that it can manage from 30's in January to 21C+ mean annual temps.Actually 2012 will also be a year of 21C+ mean annual in Palaiohora!
> 
> South Crete is obviously the leader in Europe which is clearly shown from the real data at hand.If you have any other area beating Palaiohora shows us the data




Well, I can show you that different locations in Portugal surpass 34ºc on average. Is nothing special. Greece has much better weather coverage, though that´s the maximum known. 

So show us that areas that you say that are warmer than Palaiohora. I can show you several areas warmer than Moura, for example, and with valid arguments.

Too soon to make conclusions about the warmest place in Europe.

Crete  may be or not. That´s an island well in the South, anyway. Even if it is Crete, is nothing special, there are areas around the same latitude that can beat it. 

And again, I want to see the last years data from Seville. Maybe Ferreiro has.
Maybe not warmer, but if it is close or relatively close, that will be really interesting.


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## Mesogiakos (24 Dez 2012 às 19:12)

belem disse:


> So show us that areas that you say that are warmer than Palaiohora. I can show you several areas warmer than Moura




I can also read the cards,fly,or even better time travel .The point is that we need real data.Anyone can claim one or the other thing.We need the real hard data that go along with it.

As I said it will be tough for Portugal to beat Sparta.I have asked you to show me an area for the last 4 years that had a higher July mean maximum in Portugal,so we can get an indication.Real comparisons.Once you provide these I might consider your arbitrary arguments.

As for areas in the ''same latitude'' that can beat Palaiohora...Well check out what Ian from the UK forum had to say

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...-temperatures/page__view__findpost__p__825599


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## belem (25 Dez 2012 às 17:18)

Mesogiakos disse:


> I can also read the cards,fly,or even better time travel .The point is that we need real data.Anyone can claim one or the other thing.We need the real hard data that go along with it.
> 
> As I said it will be tough for Portugal to beat Sparta.I have asked you to show me an area for the last 4 years that had a higher July mean maximum in Portugal,so we can get an indication.Real comparisons.Once you provide these I might consider your arbitrary arguments.
> 
> ...



Yes, we need real data and I have been talking about real data.
I already did mentioned that we had these discussions on this forum before ( with graphs) and on which threads on the past for you, but seemingly you didn´t paid attention. So I´ll happily provide it to you again.

I have been also trying to correlate the estimates of IM, with the existing weather stations, that can be found in the same areas, and the estimations have been proven to be even lower than the reality. I don´t know if this can be said for every place, but the warmer regions did received the biggest attention. So that´s quite probable.
Anyway, nothing better than measured data, so when I have more time (this week) I´ll post the data that we have. But let me remember you, according to the data we have discussed on this forum (in the past), Greece has a much better weather coverage than Portugal so the modern results more likely lead us to biased conclusions. Anyway, the scarce data that we have from Portugal is enough to prove my points.


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## Mesogiakos (26 Dez 2012 às 00:51)

We have been through this coverage issue as well.Greece also lacks coverage in the areas where it could be potentially warmer.Only 4 stations exist in South Cretan coasts.In an area spanning 300 km.This is not enough.It's nothing compared to the geo complexity of such a unique area climatology-wise.


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## belem (26 Dez 2012 às 18:33)

Well if Greece has a weather coverage issue, Portugal even more.

And I have found that some weather stations here (classified as WMO) actually don´t even have conditions for right measurements. Some agro meteo stations (some are official ones) have very good conditions.

I´m already gathering, very interesting data, but I need only some more things.

Btw, what´s your biggest average (climatological) for the mean max of the warmest month of the year?


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## Mesogiakos (27 Dez 2012 às 17:54)

38.3C in Sparta last July as far as I am aware.

However Sparta station was not recording in the epic 2007 summer.It would probably be even higher I reckon in 2007 summer.

Here is the data for Sparta for last July

http://penteli.meteo.gr/meteosearch/data/sparti/2012-07.txt

The highest mean max (climate normal) is *35.1C *in July in Ladonas,Arkadia according to Sakelariou (2011).Sparta stands at 34.5C


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## Mesogiakos (29 Dez 2012 às 04:35)

let me know if u got my pm belem.For some reason I cant understand if u actually received it and my Portuguese is not that great


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## belem (29 Dez 2012 às 11:58)

Yes, pm is here!

Thanks.


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## Mesogiakos (1 Jan 2013 às 03:36)

And here is the final table for 2007-2012 means in Palaiohora.

For 2012 Palaiohora has tied it's 2010 mean annual temperature of 21.04C.The 6 year average annual temperature is an amazing *20.72C*. 

Enjoy the full stats


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## J.S. (6 Jan 2013 às 23:46)

Mesogiakos disse:


> And here is the final table for 2007-2012 means in Palaiohora.
> 
> For 2012 Palaiohora has tied it's 2010 mean annual temperature of 21.04C.The 6 year average annual temperature is an amazing *20.72C*.
> 
> Enjoy the full stats



These are Davis stations I guess? Those are not calibrated. Which shield was used. New tests in the field in Algeria have shown their (parttime) artificially ventilated shields to be prone to warming under warm and dry conditions...COuld be caused by dust gathering in the fan, unsure. Like you can read form the report

"Other artificially ventilated screens gave disappointing results, with quite warm temperatures in case of solar radiation. This may be due to their design and/or some faults in the ventilation during the test (dust and sand reducing the ventilation efficiency). For example, the ventilated DAVIS gave worst results (warmer temperatures during day) than the passive DAVIS, which was not expected."

The sensor used by Davis is a sensirion SHT 11. It has deviations of 0,4 at best to 1,5 at worst over the range of -40 to +60 or so. Davis' itself has compensated for this but still 0,5 to 1 or 1,5 C differences are to be expected based on the sensor solely..So not considering the Shield used...

It is my experience with Davis weatherstations too I am afraid. I use them for the net and calibrated loggers in the field and the differences are real...

We also need to know where those stations are sited. In a city, near a city, between shrubs etc. Otherwise it is all pretty meaningless if we want ot be exact.


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## Mesogiakos (8 Jan 2013 às 12:50)

Yeah its Davis pro2 fan aspirated (full time ventilation btw) and yes the NOA administration calibrates them regularly plus they are very well shielded by solar radiation .Generally their accuracy is really good,the best in the free market actually, leaving aside the ones used by the national authorities.But no worries the HNMS station in Palaiohora is even warmer with around 20.9C mean annual for the same period.

What your subjective experience or a random test of a part time ventilated station in a different area shows is irrelevant and says nothing on how the academic personel of the National Observatory of Athens overlooks and calibrates it's stations.Come on,It's south Crete.No matter how u look  at it (either from this NOA station or the HNMS station) we are talking about the absolute champion of mean annual temperatures in Europe.No biggie

PS.Next time u quote a study,give the full and exact reference for cross checking or the relevant link as well


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## J.S. (8 Jan 2013 às 16:00)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Yeah its Davis pro2 fan aspirated (full time ventilation btw) and yes the NOA administration calibrates them regularly plus they are very well shielded by solar radiation .Generally their accuracy is really good,the best in the free market actually, leaving aside the ones used by the national authorities.But no worries the HNMS station in Palaiohora is even warmer with around 20.9C mean annual for the same period.



May be you should be sure about what you say when you say something. The radiation shields of Davis are not very well shielded. As the study shows (and I suggest you take some trouble looking it up instead of realying on others consistently to educate you) calibration of the instruments itself is not the problem. As the test was a sensorscreen and not a thermometer test, the errors are due to construction errors which give away to radiation errors. Inspite of ventilaton. 

Are there two weatherstations active in that place with different equipment?



> What your subjective experience or a random test of a part time ventilated station in a different area shows is irrelevant and says nothing on how the academic personel of the National Observatory of Athens overlooks and calibrates it's stations.Come on,It's south Crete.No matter how u look  at it (either from this NOA station or the HNMS station) we are talking about the absolute champion of mean annual temperatures in Europe.No biggie



I was not aware of any contest between nonexisting entities. But you mean that I should not be amazed by this. I was not amazed by it, but I am critical to any data that seems very extreme. It does not matter where it is. Crete being warmer than any other place in europe on average is another story. it seems likely and easy to explain. It is surrounded by a sea that is very warm on average. much warmer than the Antlantic ocean near Iberia. And there you go. May be that calls for a celebration ("yes, we are the warmest on average in europe. Hurray!!")??

What I do know about people that take a stance like you is that there needs to be extra care towards their assertions. They do not seem to be based solely on ratio but on desires too. Pushing the truth can be a result we have seen more than once.



> PS.Next time u quote a study,give the full and exact reference for cross checking or the relevant link as well



Take some trouble yourself. I rarely react on suspiscion or orders from people I don't know or who may be are troubled by paranoia.


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## Mesogiakos (9 Jan 2013 às 01:05)

J.S. disse:


> Take some trouble yourself. I rarely react on suspiscion or orders from people I don't know or who may be are troubled by paranoia.



Who gives a shit on how u react? Show me the full and exact reference so I can cross check what the entire study says until then as I said an irrelevant study of a different area with different conditions and which is also a different kind of Davis station says nothing on the validity of the Palaiohora station.I know u might be confused but next time try to compare the exact models, at least one pro2 fan aspirated.It's pretty basic u know mate.As for the rest I know it might appear ''too extreme'' for you but on the other hand u are clueless when it comes to Cretan climate so no biggie there.That's why I am here to inform people.

Both stations are spot on and the official one from HNMS is even warmer.Yep Palaiohora doesnt have any trouble ruling over Europe from any station.Come on, deal with it

Btw here is a direct comparison of the exact same models, one in Palaiohora and one in urban Seville for 2012.Huge differences.Yes South Crete rules!

*Seville Davis Vantage Pro2 fan asp 2012 annual output*

http://www.eltiemposevilla.es/NOAAPRYR.TXT

*
Palaiohora Davis Vantage Pro2 fan asp 2012 annual output*

http://penteli.meteo.gr/stations/paleochora/NOAAPRYR.TXT

I am pretty confident that you can not and will not find any Davis Pro2 fan aspirated station anywhere in Europe systematically warmer than Palaiohora or any Southern Cretan for that matter.


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## 1337 (9 Jan 2013 às 01:53)

speack what u want greek, the truth is that in athens its snowing right now with -1ºC and we have 14ºC in lisbon.


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## J.S. (9 Jan 2013 às 11:33)

You are responding. You care a whole lot about what the world thinks about the climate in Greece. Hence your crucade and your replies ot me and others. if you only would know how little anyone cares about these things. It only matters to a few and it seems to you especially.

I never knew climatic averages were done in weatherstations made by Davis and its sluggish sensors. It is an excellent product for us. Not for Meteorological institutes.  Not on its own. it is not even good enough for me. So I use calibrated loggers and note the difference. For many reasons. As said: not being accurate enough, slow response and a faulty sensorscreen (yes, the ventilated ones) are some of the reasons.

When I ask a barcelona supporter which team is the best ever I know the answer. Likewise with you. Somehow I have the feeling asking you about the warmest place in europe will always end up somewhere in Greece. Now, we are not arguing that this is inplausible, but I prefer a more realistic and less sensationalist tune. 

Palaiahora..meaures 6 years in the quoted table. 2007-2012. 1983-2012 is the norm for climatological averages. It will be lower as the Greek climate has heated up quite a bit like most of us in europe. 2007-2012 will give us a much higher average than 1983-2012 will. Let alone 1971-2000 or 1961-1990 which is the standard in most countries. So at least here, you compare apples and oranges.

I have not come across any picture of the stations. How are they sited, are they in or near buildings? Concrete? Runways? Roads? 

In true fanboystyle you have shown a very critical stance to Italian and Spanish stations noting some remarkable (and probably faulty) readings. I fail to see the same rigor when it comes to the Greek ones. Another sign of double standards and a strong urge to get some preferential outcome.

And that is why you by and large fail to reach people who ARE interested. On the Italian forum and on this once you meet resistance. People do not accept what you say. I think because it is clear you are very biased and also because of your tone. You are telling others how things are, you are not convincing them. As said: clear double standards. Not a strong incentive to change someones mind, as you have noticed I guess and that is why 3 years onwards you are still feeling the need ot argue. With the same people mostly. Good luck.


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## AnDré (9 Jan 2013 às 14:26)

Voltando a Palaiohora e ao sul de Creta.
Palaiohora fica quase dentro de água. Existem muitos outros locais em Creta que devem ter maior potencial para temperaturas médias anuais maiores.
Basta olhar para o mapa do terreno:






O vale de Mires, encaixado nas montanhas, por exemplo.

Mas já que falamos de ilhas, porque não falar do Chipre (Cyprus)?
Os vales da costa sul do Chipre parecem-me ainda mais encaixados. Já para não falar da água do mar que é em média mais quente que em Creta.


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## J.S. (9 Jan 2013 às 14:49)

AnDré disse:


> Voltando a Palaiohora e ao sul de Creta.
> Palaiohora fica quase dentro de água. Existem muitos outros locais em Creta que devem ter maior potencial para temperaturas médias anuais maiores.
> Basta olhar para o mapa do terreno:
> 
> ...



That won't make the temperatures higher on average. Those valleys will have lower nighttime and higher daytime temperatures . You'll see inland spring being warmer on average and autum-coast being warmer.

look at Portugal and Spain: the warmest asverage anual temperatures are found on the southern coasts.

Chipre: looked it up already: about 20,0 C is the annual average in the warmest places. But Chipre is Asia.


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## stormy (9 Jan 2013 às 15:00)

AnDré disse:


> Voltando a Palaiohora e ao sul de Creta.
> Palaiohora fica quase dentro de água. Existem muitos outros locais em Creta que devem ter maior potencial para temperaturas médias anuais maiores.
> Basta olhar para o mapa do terreno:
> 
> ...



Os vales teem noites muito mais frias...o que acontece em Palaiohora deve ter a ver com a falta de inversões térmicas e a proximidade ao mar, que resulta em minimas muito altas ( proximas á SST que anda pelos 26-28ºC no Verão).
Os vales talvez ja tenham minimas muito mais parecidas ás do Interior sul da PI, 16-20ºC..pois drenam o ar frio do interior criando bolsas de inversão.

Outra coisa é que os ventos dominantes de N devem sofrer algum efeito de fohen ao passar as montanhas do interior de Creta..

Em Pt continental, assim minimamente parecido, só temos a Arrabida...talvez fosse interessante meter uma estação tipo no Portinho ou na Figueirinha..devem ter pelo menos as minimas bem mais altas do que qualquer outro ponto da costa ocidental.


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## AnDré (9 Jan 2013 às 15:24)

J.S. disse:


> That won't make the temperatures higher on average. Those valleys will have lower nighttime and higher daytime temperatures . You'll see inland spring being warmer on average and autum-coast being warmer.
> 
> look at Portugal and Spain: the warmest asverage anual temperatures are found on the southern coasts.
> 
> Chipre: looked it up already: about 20,0 C is the annual average in the warmest places. But Chipre is Asia.



Isso nem sempre é regra, J.S.
Em Portugal continental, estima-se que os locais com a temperatura média anual mais elevada são os vales a sudeste da serra de Monchique, no Algarve.

De qualquer forma, não será a região leste, de Zakros e Goudouras mais quentes que Palaiochora?

Quanto ao Chipre, o país até pode ser geograficamente asiático, mas em termos de comparação (latitude, o facto de ser uma ilha, etc), tem muito mais sentido de comparação do que comparar Creta a Portugal, Espanha, Itália, etc.

E sobre a temperatura média, não há estações, mas há as temperaturas médias do mar.
Em Creta (Heraklion) a temperatura média anual do mar é de 19,7ºC, ao passo que em Limassol (Chipre), a temperatura média anual do mar é de 21,7ºC.
Portanto, o sul do Chipre, nem que seja pelo simples facto de ter médias da temperatura da água mais elevadas que Creta, deve ter locais cuja temperatura média do anual do ar deve rondar os 21ºC, ou ligeiramente mais.


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## J.S. (9 Jan 2013 às 18:10)

AnDré disse:


> Isso nem sempre é regra, J.S.
> Em Portugal continental, estima-se que os locais com a temperatura média anual mais elevada são os vales a sudeste da serra de Monchique, no Algarve.
> 
> De qualquer forma, não será a região leste, de Zakros e Goudouras mais quentes que Palaiochora?
> ...



Não e uma regra, mas e quase sempre correcto. "Estimar"" e uma coisa que não gosto muito. O que nos sabemos e que Faro esta na zona mais quente que nos conhecimos, não e? Talvez ha umas locais um bocadinho mais quente, mas não muito. 

Quando temos um mar que esta fresco o muito fresco (como na costa Marroquinha) o interior a baixo altitude esta mais quente. Mas em Creta acho que isto não e muito provavel. 

Sobre Chipre...a um lado..pois, esta numa situação parecido que Creta. E as temperaturas estão um bocada mais baixo. 1 grau. Penso que Chipre fica numa posição melhor para estar mais quento do que Creta, mas não tenho certza. Oq ue nos precisamos são dados fiaveis, penso eu. E não so dados dos ultimos 5-10 anos....


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## belem (9 Jan 2013 às 19:36)

Na minha opinião, ainda não existe informação suficiente para determinar com clareza quais os locais com a maior temperatura média anual de Portugal continental. Faltam muitas medições (nem que sejam temporárias), em muitas das regiões de clima mais quente.
Quanto muito, podem haver aproximações.


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## Mesogiakos (9 Jan 2013 às 23:07)

1337 disse:


> speack what u want greek, the truth is that in athens its snowing right now with -1ºC and we have 14ºC in lisbon.



And that's the magic of Greece!Btw it snowed 2 days ago in Athens and I reported it over in the UK forum.It was only snow flurries in the center but still it was good enough!Btw it was not -1 in the center.The lowest was +0.9C


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## Mesogiakos (9 Jan 2013 às 23:08)

J.S. disse:


> . Good luck.



oh pls cry me a river,will u?

btw get ur shit str8 mate.I am not comparing different periods.I only compared 2007-2012 and NOT a single station in Europe beats Palaiohora.Deal with it

As for the rest moaning and groaning spare us.Go cry somewhere else.Unless and until u provide me with the whole study I asked u are just a winning irrelevant out of touch person.I can also say that u are a totally biased,unworthy and unable to provide basic research when asked and most definitely u would fail a first year uni course.Now show me the study or I can also continue the personal criticism that u so much love to bring as an argument in the conversation.

Dont be a cheap crap and give me the data I asked.Until then bow in Southern Crete and cry me a river.


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## Mesogiakos (9 Jan 2013 às 23:27)

AnDré disse:


> . que em Limassol (Chipre), a temperatura média anual do mar é de 21,7ºC.



The sea temperature might be so (actually I have no idea on this) but Ian over in the UK forum had made a quick comparison for the same period on the air temperature for Cyprus.Here are the results.


http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...-temperatures/page__view__findpost__p__825599


As for other areas warmer than Palaiohora in Crete,yes I agree,but those most definitely wont be in the valleys as the minimums there are way too low.The best candidates are locations on the south coast.


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## Mesogiakos (9 Jan 2013 às 23:34)

stormy disse:


> Os vales teem noites muito mais frias...o que acontece em Palaiohora deve ter a ver com a falta de inversões térmicas e a proximidade ao mar, que resulta em minimas muito altas ( proximas á SST que anda pelos 26-28ºC no Verão).
> Os vales talvez ja tenham minimas muito mais parecidas ás do Interior sul da PI, 16-20ºC..pois drenam o ar frio do interior criando bolsas de inversão.
> 
> Outra coisa é que os ventos dominantes de N devem sofrer algum efeito de fohen ao passar as montanhas do interior de Creta..
> ...




Spot on stormy!

What is happening in Palaiohora is the effects of the almost constant foehn winds during the summer (due to the Meltemi winds acting as such) and this coupled with the protection the wider area receives from the mountains.

If you notice Crete closely u will see the big differences from place to place.Especially when it comes to areas protected by the mountains.Palaiohora seems very special as it is almost perfectly sheltered by the mountains in the north and so during the summer the prevailing Meltemi winds give it an almost constant foehn plus it's location by the warm waters of the Libyan sea gives us this amazing temperatures.


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## AnDré (10 Jan 2013 às 02:06)

Mesogiakos disse:


> The sea temperature might be so (actually I have no idea on this) but Ian over in the UK forum had made a quick comparison for the same period on the air temperature for Cyprus.Here are the results.
> 
> 
> http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...-temperatures/page__view__findpost__p__825599
> ...



Compara com Kyrenia (Cyprus). 
A temperatura média em 2012 em Kyrenia foi de 21,1ºC. Lanarca 20,2ºC.
E Kyrenia fica no norte.


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 02:09)

AnDré disse:


> Compara com Kyrenia (Cyprus).
> A temperatura média em 2012 em Kyrenia foi de 21,1ºC. Lanarca 20,2ºC.
> E Kyrenia fica no norte.



21.04C was in Palaiohora for 2012 so pretty much the same.Do u have the data for Kerinia between 2007-2012 so we can compare directly?

I couldnt find the data of Kerinia on ogimet,where did u find them?I highly doubt Kerinia is warmer than Larnaca btw


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## AnDré (10 Jan 2013 às 02:41)

Mesogiakos disse:


> 21.04C was in Palaiohora for 2012 so pretty much the same.Do u have the data for Kerinia between 2007-2012 so we can compare directly?
> 
> I couldnt find the data of Kerinia on ogimet,where did u find them?I highly doubt Kerinia is warmer than Larnaca btw



Kyrenia - Ogimet

Em 2011 faltam uma série de dados, mas em 2010 a média foi de 21,58ºC.


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 02:50)

AnDré disse:


> Kyrenia - Ogimet
> 
> Em 2011 faltam uma série de dados, mas em 2010 a média foi de 21,58ºC.



It's two warm years yes.Do u have ALL the 6 years to compare?I am confident Palaiohora beats it as well.And where is 2010 of 21.58C?I cant find it.I only see the last few days of data

Actually I can not find either the 2012 or 2010 data u are saying.Can u provide the direct link of the data pls?

Only Larnaca appears with a full series of data for 12 full months

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gclim...ind=&ord=REV&verb=no&year=2012&mes=12&months=


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 02:56)

I mean that I wanna see the whole data for Kerinia and cant find them.I only see last few days from the link u provided.Pls show me where the 21.1C and 21.6C is to be found


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## AnDré (10 Jan 2013 às 02:56)

Mesogiakos disse:


> It's two warm years yes.Do u have ALL the 6 years to compare?I am confident Palaiohora beats it as well.And where is 2010 of 21.58C?I cant find it.I only see the last few days of data



No ogimet só estão os valores diários.
Copiei todos esses valores para um ficheiro excel e fiz a média. 
Dá é algum trabalho.

Tanto em 2010 como em 2012, únicos anos que fiz, a grande diferença entre Kyrenia e Lacarna está na temperatura mínima.

Kyrenia teve média das mínimas em 2010 de 17,84ºC e em 2012 de 17,31ºC.


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 03:00)

What excel file?What is the source of this excel file?U mean that u personally were daily keeping the data of Kerinia for 2010 and 2012?

I wanna see the hard data for my self.Or post the excel file here.I highly doubt Kerinia is warmer than Larnaca.From ogimet nothing like that withstands at least from the links u provided.

U understand I always wanna check the whole data my self.Post the excel file and I will do the work no worries


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 03:07)

Or provide me the direct link (or show me the way to find these data on my own from Ogimet) so u wont need to post the excel file and I will do the relevant work as well


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## AnDré (10 Jan 2013 às 03:15)

Mesogiakos disse:


> What excel file?What is the source of this excel file?U mean that u personally were daily keeping the data of Kerinia for 2010 and 2012?
> 
> I wanna see the hard data for my self.Or post the excel file here.I highly doubt Kerinia is warmer than Larnaca.From ogimet nothing like that withstands at least from the links u provided.
> 
> U understand I always wanna check the whole data my self.Post the excel file and I will do the work no worries



Sim, copiei todos os dias e fiz a média.
Toma lá o link do ficheiro de 2010 e comprova os valores que te disse:

http://uploading.com/59e4c219/Kyrenia-2010-xls


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 03:20)

AnDré disse:


> Sim, copiei todos os dias e fiz a média.
> Toma lá o link do ficheiro de 2010 e comprova os valores que te disse:
> 
> http://uploading.com/59e4c219/Kyrenia-2010-xls



lol sorry I am busting ur balls here but can u do it in english for me? google translate is crap.

Can u explain to me how u found the data of Kerinia for 2010 and 2012 from Ogimet?Can I also find it now so I can personally cross check ur work?

Thanks for the excel file!I ll check it


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 03:25)

Ok i just checked your excel file quickly .You havent compared the simple mean correctly.I think u copy pasted it and then u calculated the ogimet mean (as is provided in the last column).The simple mean must be different.I quickly run some random days and you are off in terms of the simple mean.It's a lot of work but I ll try and fix it


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## AnDré (10 Jan 2013 às 03:38)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Ok i just checked your excel file quickly .You havent compared the simple mean correctly.I think u copy pasted it and then u calculated the ogimet mean (as is provided in the last column).The simple mean must be different.I quickly run some random days and you are off in terms of the simple mean.It's a lot of work but I ll try and fix it




I just calculated the values in the end of the file. (Average).
Check the ogimet, month by month, and you'll see all the values are correct. 

2012:
 Excel file of Kyrenia vs Lacarna (2012). (3,16MB)

As I said, it's a hard work to copy&past everything. Maybe tomorrow I'll try to do the same for 2007, 2008 and 2009. (For 2011, data values are not complete)


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 03:42)

That is what I am asking!!*How do u check the Kerinia values month by month from Ogimet*?I cant find them.Can u explain the exact path u followed to see the month by month data?


Give me the direct link so I will do it for the whole 6 years.For the time being I cant find anything from ogimet apart from the past few days in Kerinia.


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## AnDré (10 Jan 2013 às 03:53)

Mesogiakos disse:


> That is what I am asking!!*How do u check the Kerinia values month by month from Ogimet*?I cant find them.Can u explain the exact path u followed to see the month by month data?




December: http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ind=17510&ano=2013&mes=1&day=2&hora=0&min=0&ndays=30
November: http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ind=17510&ano=2012&mes=12&day=2&hora=0&min=0&ndays=30
October: http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ind=17510&ano=2012&mes=11&day=2&hora=0&min=0&ndays=30
(...)
until January.

Example:
http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ind=17510&*ano=2013*&*mes=1*&*day=2*&hora=0&min=0&ndays=30

ano means year;
mes means month;
day - it's the first day of 30 days. 

You have to play with *url* until you have all the days of the year.


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## Mesogiakos (10 Jan 2013 às 03:58)

got it thanks!!That is what I was asking all along.Will do the whole 6 year period out of curiosity to see how Kerinia and Palaiohora compare


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## J.S. (12 Jan 2013 às 23:30)

Mesogiakos disse:


> oh pls cry me a river,will u?
> 
> btw get ur shit str8 mate.I am not comparing different periods.I only compared 2007-2012 and NOT a single station in Europe beats Palaiohora.Deal with it
> 
> ...



You seem to take things personal. This is about data. I don't trust the Greek data for the reasons I gave. Crete being the warmest place in Europe when it comes to yearly averages is very likely and there are good reasons why this is.


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## belem (13 Jan 2013 às 14:56)

Yes, it´s likely if we look at Europe on a certain manner, but we need more data.


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## J.S. (13 Jan 2013 às 15:42)

> The 4 year  July mean max for Sparta is *36.3C* and for August is *36.2C.*You might be right about Guadalquivir but I think Sparta beats any area in Portugal in my opinion.Sparta's 20 year July mean max was *34.5C * according to HNMS and that during a decade with very chilly summers in Greece.Sparta should be at least on par or warmer than Seville in terms of summer mean maxes I believe.



I think I once pointed you to Sparta, isn't it? It is an interesting valley. An average of 36,3 or so in the last couple of years is quite possible in Amareleja and other areas. I believe somehwere in 2006 or 2005 they even had that in June. As you have noticed on this site, it is a question what the warmest area in Portugal is because the former IM does not measure in valleys. They only measure above it. SO we do calculations etc but you cannot be sure. I have sen several maps that indicate an average july/august max somewhere between 35,5 and 37,5 C over the 1961-1990 period. I tend to think that both figures are quite high, although 35 C is on par with Sevilla over the same period and Sevilla is open to winds from the sea, while the nearby Portuguese stations in the Guadiana vallye and Chanca valey are not or far less so.

They are mentioned in one book about Portuguese climatology I have and the other one is a calculation ff an IM study.  

There are a lot of ifs. I have already suggested to some to install a station at a farmer, in open terrain as low as we can get with a calibrated datalogger and a Vaisala nonventilated screen. I can build the Vaisala myself as I have done already. But people here do not respond, and arranging this from the Netherlands is difficult.

Meanwhile I am doing this succesfully in my own part of the Netherlands, where I operate several stations (2 now, a third one this month and a fourth and fifth this years). As a sidenote: I dod this to measure incoming seabreezes and absolute minima which can swing wildly in this lowlying country. For instance: I had -17,2 last february where the two nearby KNMI stations had -10,3 and -11,0. Another one a bit furthr away (40 km) had 
-17,8. All you need to do is simply mail asmany people with a suitable measuring field> one responds and you install a station. Not that difficult. But may be Portugal is a bit different. People over here ar very interested in the weather. Went yesterday to the new site and the guy living there always checks the pluviometer and thermometers first thing in the morning for example (his wife told me so)..


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## belem (13 Jan 2013 às 21:14)

Regarding the averages for highs the warmest month, in Portugal continental, is not calculated to be between 35-37,5ºc (according to different regions) for 60-90 period... According to that study, that´s the average for 3 warmest months of the year, so the average for the warmest month, has to be higher than that (on the same period).

We basically only have data from the fresher areas, that are not located on the warmest lowlands, like one Moura station, which did had (between 1941-1963), 34,8ºc on average for July and 34,5ºc on average for August.


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## Mesogiakos (14 Jan 2013 às 15:58)

Pretty sure Sparta (and Sivas in S.Crete for that matter) beat any station around Moura.Any data for the last 4 years around Moura to see how it compares with Sparta's 36.3C in July or 36.2C in August?


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## belem (14 Jan 2013 às 17:49)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Pretty sure Sparta (and Sivas in S.Crete for that matter) beat any station around Moura.Any data for the last 4 years around Moura to see how it compares with Sparta's 36.3C in July or 36.2C in August?



Do you have data about the same period (1941-1963), from Sparta?

And let´s remember that Moura  is on a plain, not on a valley lowland.


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## stormy (14 Jan 2013 às 20:10)

Moura´s climatic averages:

http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/normais-climatologicas-de-moura-4396.html

Remember that our climate has warmed up some 1-2ºC since the 40´s/50´s

July 17.3/34.8
August 17.7/34.5

Actually warmer than nowdays ( 71-00) Amareleja...


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## Mesogiakos (15 Jan 2013 às 01:55)

belem disse:


> Do you have data about the same period (1941-1963), from Sparta?
> 
> And let´s remember that Moura  is on a plain, not on a valley lowland.



No but the 34.5C in Sparta was for only 20 years with a decade of very cold summers.Plus dont forget that in neighboring Ladonas 35.1C was the climatic normal. Let's not beat around the bushes here.I havent found any area in Portugal the last 4 years we have data for Sparta to even go close.

Sparta has a unique topography and the mountains help even more with the constant foehn they provide.Actually both Sparta and the Messara valley in South Crete would give hell to any area in Portugal in my understanding.If we had something potentially close to Sparta in Portugal we would have found it by now.I can even accept private fan aspirated stations anywhere in the country the last 4 years just for the sake of research.Tbh I think u wont find anything.We would have picked it up by now.Told u that both Sparta and the Messara valley are difficult ones to beat.Plus dont forget that the station in Sparta is situated at 204 meters altitude.In my opinion the only areas in Europe outside the IP to give Seville a run for it's money is the valley of Sparta and the Messara valley and quite possibly some areas in the Catania plains in Sicily.That's the best u will find outside IP to go head on with Seville but I believe Sparta is the strongest of them all and the only one to make the urban Seville area fret.I am gonna wait a couple more years to see how the urban Davis fan aspirated stations in Seville and Sparta continue to behave but so far and at least for the last 2 years that we have data from both Sparta beats Seville for the whole summer trimester.


Here is a quick reminder of Sparta's mean maxes the last 4 years that the station is recording.

July

2009 36.1
2010 34.8
2011 36.0
2012 38.3

August

2009 34.4
2010 37.2
2011 35.7
2012 37.3

Plus from a laographic point of view and due to the rich history of Sparta we have had some very interesting tips from Ancient Greek historians,geographers etc on Sparta's brutal summers.Herodotus for example speaks of scorching Spartan summers.Some authors mention that the Spartan heat was too much even for the mighty Spartan warriors while others suggested that Spartans were forcing the little boys to practice to become excellent warriors and wrestle mid day in the mid summer unbearable Spartan heat.


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## Mesogiakos (15 Jan 2013 às 02:28)

stormy disse:


> Remember that our climate has warmed up some 1-2ºC since the 40´s/50´s



Oh trust me you dont want to mess with Greece's warming the last decades.Especially the last 15 years.The summer stats are off the charts.You must know that.I stress it all the time.

Hell even in the center of Athens in July according to the official WMO station the mean maximum for 1981-2010 is 34C exactly,not to mention the notorious Nea Filadelfeia suburb.

If Athens manages a 34C mean max the last 30 years then I am pretty sure the Sparta valley will give us some very interesting values.


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## Mesogiakos (15 Jan 2013 às 02:47)

Oh and here is a teaser for Sparta lol.You gotta love Hollywood haha


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## Mesogiakos (15 Jan 2013 às 02:55)

Love this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDRAhiBtOrQ


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## belem (15 Jan 2013 às 15:34)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Oh trust me you dont want to mess with Greece's warming the last decades.Especially the last 15 years.The summer stats are off the charts.You must know that.I stress it all the time.
> 
> Hell even in the center of Athens in July according to the official WMO station the mean maximum for 1981-2010 is 34C exactly,not to mention the notorious Nea Filadelfeia suburb.
> 
> If Athens manages a 34C mean max the last 30 years then I am pretty sure the Sparta valley will give us some very interesting values.



Here it´s warming up too.


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## belem (15 Jan 2013 às 15:46)

Mesogiakos disse:


> No but the 34.5C in Sparta was for only 20 years with a decade of very cold summers.Plus dont forget that in neighboring Ladonas 35.1C was the climatic normal. Let's not beat around the bushes here.I havent found any area in Portugal the last 4 years we have data for Sparta to even go close..



Even Amareleja weather station, which is situated on the Morena moutain range, inside a forest, has close values to those ones. We should remember that altitude isn´t everything, exposition (etc...) is also very important.
Moura values were measured when the climate was colder than nowadays and on a plain. However, it are nearly equal to present day Sparta and Ladonas.
So do your maths.




Mesogiakos disse:


> Sparta has a unique topography and the mountains help even more with the constant foehn they provide.Actually both Sparta and the Messara valley in South Crete would give hell to any area in Portugal in my understanding.If we had something potentially close to Sparta in Portugal we would have found it by now.I can even accept private fan aspirated stations anywhere in the country the last 4 years just for the sake of research.Tbh I think u wont find anything.We would have picked it up by now.Told u that both Sparta and the Messara valley are difficult ones to beat.Plus dont forget that the station in Sparta is situated at 204 meters altitude.In my opinion the only areas in Europe outside the IP to give Seville a run for it's money is the valley of Sparta and the Messara valley and quite possibly some areas in the Catania plains in Sicily.That's the best u will find outside IP to go head on with Seville but I believe Sparta is the strongest of them all and the only one to make the urban Seville area fret.I am gonna wait a couple more years to see how the urban Davis fan aspirated stations in Seville and Sparta continue to behave but so far and at least for the last 2 years that we have data from both Sparta beats Seville for the whole summer trimester...



Ok, it´s your opinion and I respect it.
AFAIK, Seville annual averages, were already beaten close to Alcoutim (Portugal). And there are clearly warmer areas in Portugal (so may the same happen in Spain). 
I have some more interesting data to put here, that not only lead us to the clear conclusion that Portugal has a big lack of data on its warm areas but also that it are well worth to being investigated on the future, because fresh areas, already give us interesting values.




Mesogiakos disse:


> Here is a quick reminder of Sparta's mean maxes the last 4 years that the station is recording.
> 
> July
> 
> ...



Interesting information!
I like Greece and its history.
Many, many thanks.


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## Mesogiakos (16 Jan 2013 às 03:30)

belem disse:


> Ok, it´s your opinion and I respect it.
> AFAIK, Seville annual averages, were already beaten close to Alcoutim (Portugal).



Was talking in terms of summer mean maxes.Half of South Greece (from Southern Attica to Crete) can beat Seville in annual means , a 19C mean annual is not a challenge for Greece.But in summer mean maxes the only area in Europe outside the IP to beat Seville until today is the Evrotas valley of Sparta and the Messara valley in South Crete.Potentially the Catania plains as well in Sicily.But I believe the strongest of all is Sparta.

As I said we do have good indications that Sparta is actually warmer in summer mean maxes compared to urban Seville.I ll give it 1-2 more years to see the behavior of both urban fan aspirated stations I am monitoring in urban Seville and I ll feel more confident,but for the time being and to my knowledge Sparta is the first and only station outside IP to ever beat Seville in summer mean maxes (meaning the entire JJA summer) even only for a few years data


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## Mesogiakos (20 Jan 2013 às 15:04)

Also an interesting find for Sparta vs Seville .The entire summer mean maximum (JJA) for Sparta in 2012 was 37.0C exactly.Seville's highest was in 2009 with 36.1C.In fact the highest ever for Cordoba was also recorded in 2012 with 37.06C.So Sparta and Cordoba are really close in the JJA mean max records!

Here is a mean maximum T breakdown for Sparta in summer 2012 

June 35.4C
July 38.3C
August 37.3C

*Mean 37.0C*

Sparta is one tough bitch I tell ya lol


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## belem (20 Jan 2013 às 20:54)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Also an interesting find for Sparta vs Seville .The entire summer mean maximum (JJA) for Sparta in 2012 was 37.0C exactly.Seville's highest was in 2009 with 36.1C.In fact the highest ever for Cordoba was also recorded in 2012 with 37.06C.So Sparta and Cordoba are really close in the JJA mean max records!
> 
> Here is a mean maximum T breakdown for Sparta in summer 2012
> 
> ...



Yes, probably Cordoba and Sparta are close in summer mean maxes...
But we need data for more years.


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## Mesogiakos (21 Jan 2013 às 09:33)

belem disse:


> Yes, probably Cordoba and Sparta are close in summer mean maxes...
> But we need data for more years.



Yes and all this due to the protection two of Greece's highest mountains give to Sparta from the moderating effects of the sea.

Sparta is at the very center of the Evrotas river valley between mountain Taygetus (2407m asl) in the south and mountain Parnonas (1935m asl) in the north.

Sparta is blocked from all directions (and I mean all directions,north,south,east,west) from various mountains from the mountain ranges of Taygetus and Parnonas.This coupled with the distance of 30klm from the sea in west (totally blocked from Taygetus) 50 klm from the east (totally blocked from Parnonas),40km from South and more than 100km from the north it provides some almost constant summer foehn winds,blocks the moderating effects of the sea and it is really south just at 37.04 degrees north.if only it was at lower altitudes (it is at 204m asl) I reckon it would have even wilder temps.

By all accounts I reckon this is the best u will find in Europe outside IP. Honestly it does not have any difficulty competing with the hottest areas of Guadalquivir and Andalusia.


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## belem (21 Jan 2013 às 23:57)

Thanks for your explanation.

More data would be really welcome, though.


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## Mesogiakos (22 Jan 2013 às 13:36)

Obviously we need more data.But Sparta with only 4 years of data worth has managed not only to beat Seville but threaten even Cordoba in mean maxes.I am positive than now that we have Sparta station up and running we are gonna see Greece in a new light in terms of mean maxes.We have good indications that the Sparta valley will be relentless even against the Guadalquivir valley.


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## Mesogiakos (23 Jan 2013 às 00:34)

Over in the British forum I ve initiated a thread for the highest JJA mean maximums per country.Can you help me with Portugal? It's the only major southern european country missing.


http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...summer-mean-max-temperatures-jja-per-country/


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## Fil (23 Jan 2013 às 01:47)

Amareleja: 35,97ºC (2005)


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## Mesogiakos (23 Jan 2013 às 07:18)

Cheers thank you very much


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## Mesogiakos (23 Jan 2013 às 08:57)

And here is the updated table so far!If you have any info on other countries please do share!


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## belem (23 Jan 2013 às 12:53)

Obviously that Amareleja is about IM stations. That board does include only a certain type of weather stations?


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## Mesogiakos (23 Jan 2013 às 13:04)

No for example Mengibar and Sparta are not AEMET or HNMS stations.I include all stations on the conditions a)they are a part of a national authority (not necessarily the meteorological authority per country) b) there is a verifiable link and info on the station and there is some consensus (among the natives of that specific country mostly) that the station is accurate and reliable c)if they are automatic stations on the condition they are fan aspirated ones.

So if you have something higher from Portugal shoot.Along with the link so I can verify the data


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## belem (23 Jan 2013 às 13:10)

Mesogiakos disse:


> No for example Mengibar and Sparta are not AEMET or HNMS stations.I include all stations on the conditions a)they are a part of a national authority (not necessarily the meteorological authority per country) b) there is a verifiable link and info on the station and there is some consensus (among the natives of that specific country mostly) that the station is accurate and reliable c)if they are automatic stations on the condition they are fan aspirated ones.
> 
> So if you have something higher from Portugal shoot.Along with the link so I can verify the data



Ok, I´ll have a look on it and will try post it today.


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## Mesogiakos (23 Jan 2013 às 16:17)

Here is the last update.

Enjoy!!!Kudos to the guys over in the UK forum.Excellent job as always!


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## belem (26 Jan 2013 às 22:42)

One interesting thing, it was done, while searching for the nearly impossible (from the main South European countries, Portugal is quite probably the less studied climatologically) I did managed to get some interesting data, though from Algarve (unfortunately the warmest areas in Algarve close to Monchique and others more inland, are still without data):

Loulé-Alte, 2006-2010

Janeiro 3.54ºC//19.06ºC

Fevereiro 5.48ºC//19.72ºC

Março 7.00ºC//22.28ºC

Abril 8.44ºC//24.24ºC

Maio 10.78ºC//27.36ºC

Junho 14.30ºC//31.22ºC

Julho 17.10ºC//35.40ºC

Agosto 17.06ºC//35.18ºC

Setembro 14.78ºC//31.44ºC

Outubro 11.68ºC//27.54ºC

Novembro 6.78ºC//22.92ºC

Dezembro 4.98ºC//19.34ºC


Min. Abs. -5.5ºC
Max. Abs. 44.4ºC


Castro Marim-Junqueira, 2006-2010:

Janeiro 5.60ºC//17.46ºC

Fevereiro 6.58ºC//18.96ºC

Março 8.10ºC//21.36ºC

Abril 10.24ºC//23.50ºC

Maio 12.42ºC//27.06ºC

Junho 16.36ºC//31.32ºC

Julho 18.74ºC//35.58ºC

Agosto 18.80ºC//35.08ºC

Setembro 16.88ºC//30.84ºC

Outubro 13.64ºC//26.92ºC

Novembro 9.18ºC//21.92ºC

Dezembro 6.42ºC//18.02ºC



Min. Abs:-2.1ºC
Max. Abs: 43.5ºC


http://www.meteopt.com/forum/climatologia/o-clima-do-interior-algarvio-6013.html

And this was only possible because of climate research for agriculture practices.
Unfortunately and as it is explained on this thread, none is located on areas with the biggest summer potential on the region, though the values are not bad. So until now, overrated Amareleja still stays there.


I did contacted the COTR group (http://www.cotr.pt/cotr_uk.asp), to get data from their stations (like Herdade dos Lameirões, Serpa, etc...), thought it are all located on plains, some could have get around the same as Amareleja or maybe a bit more (regarding summer values).
They say that information is private and only with money, people can get acess to it.
Well, I think that there are better ways to have this type of information.
I would like to know if that old Moura station, still gets temperature readings, the same for the one that´s close to Alcoutim and another one in Douro.

According to the IM estimations (which are calculated based on several aspects, such as temporary weather shelters that measure temperatures) the 3 months summer daily maximum average (1960-1990) was over 37ºc, in 2 regions (East Tagus and Douro Valley). In Douro (where it reached 37,5 in one location), more than one valley was calculated to surpass this value (37,0ºc). 
In Guadiana it was about 35ºc, I think. For this case, I´m not sure how many places, according to this study got this value.
This is not 1 year record, is data for 30 years and the series is not particularly recent. This means that we would have to add something to these values, to have an idea how things work there nowadays.
The study was discussed before and I think that you maybe remember about it.

Now my opinion about this: I think that this study did opened the realistic hypothesis that the warmest areas (at least in continental Portugal) need to be in areas with low humidity on the air, very sheltered from winds, far from the sea influence (some places were over 200 kms from sea nearest point), in valleys or slopes (slopes get much higher minimum temps) located on a big continental mass (Iberia is big and low enough to generate its own heat even when the sea breeze hits the coast).
These areas aren´t studied, not even close to that.
But this study did located some the places that should be studied.

So, still a long way to go, to understand something about this humble country climatology.

Thanks for your patience and let´s hope to find something more.


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## Mesogiakos (27 Jan 2013 às 02:31)

belem disse:


> According to the IM estimations (which are calculated based on several aspects, such as temporary weather shelters that measure temperatures) the 3 months summer daily maximum average (1960-1990) was over 37ºc, in 2 regions (East Tagus and Douro Valley). In Douro (where it reached 37,5 in one location), more than one valley was calculated to surpass this value (37,0ºc).



Thanks for the data.

I dont buy this conclusion one bit tbh.I highly doubt that Portugal will get an area of over 37.Give us the link of the study to see exactly how they arrived at this estimation


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## J.S. (10 Fev 2013 às 15:37)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Thanks for the data.
> 
> I dont buy this conclusion one bit tbh.I highly doubt that Portugal will get an area of over 37.Give us the link of the study to see exactly how they arrived at this estimation



Have to agree here. We need to be critical here. I remember quite well that the charts said: "average temperature of the warmest month". So, how do we interpretate this. The warmest month in one year can be either july or agust. So if you simply use july one year, agust the next etc yes the average will be higher.

Also, I think it is just an interpolation and there is an Iberian climate atlas showing something very similar with a hotspot near Coria in Extremadura. In reality, the stations close to that area are not nearly getting that warm. even when we personally take into account the hight and say add 2-3 C for height differences we get nowhere near.

It is okey to mention these values I think, but they give us ZERO proof. I have another study in a book of which is quite extensive considering the Portuguese climate and it comes to 35-37 C in the Douro area in vary localised places. And 35+ in the vallye of the Guadian and 34+ in the Tejo valley near Vila Velha de Rodão. alas, all again not based on station because there are no stations with the exception probably with the Guadiana river where Moura indeed got very near those values in a cooler period of the last century. I believe the average over the 31-60 period was 34,8 there. 

Well, this of course also gives us space to argue! And that is what we like to do it seems ;-) So with all this data I think the current 1981-2010 averages in the warmest places in Portugal, which could be somewhere in the Guadiana basin 50 km away from the coast or more will get us somewhere near 36 C. It is highly unliekly Moura is the warmest place. So i think 35 -35,5 indeed is plausible value for the 1931-1960 period. If we translate this to the current 30 year average this would lead us to 36,0 to 36,5 C.

Who knows, one day someone will help me setup a station there with calibrated instruments. Only a good sensorscreen (or two, if one fails) and a calibrated datalogger (or two...) is needed....


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## belem (10 Fev 2013 às 16:34)

I would rely more on IM references and estimates (the ones that were discussed above) than on someone else opinion, to  locate the places with higher probability of being some of the warmest (then to pick up the data from there).

«Only a good sensorscreen (or two, if one fails) and a calibrated datalogger (or two...) is needed....»

For each target place, I do agree.


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## J.S. (11 Fev 2013 às 11:56)

*I do nothave IM in high regard*

Sorry, but if you look at those maps the simple distribution of the temperatures looked ridiculous to me. If you look at many many maps with isotherms, you soon notice when something is artificial or plainly wrong. And that is my thought on this interpolation excercise.

Moreover, if I look a the site of the IM. The way weatherstations are placed and maintained it does not look too professional to me. Now this is circumstantial "evidence" on the IM as a whole. The guys and girls that have studied this might be very good. But I think there are quite a few people on fora that know more than some professionalists, that is for sure. This is not Portugal specific.....Some pro's seem to never get out of the room and just look at the weather from a computerscreen or even rely on models more than reality. Suppose you study hotspots in a model, how about setting up some stations for a short period (a couple of months) to at least get some confirmation??

As you may have noticed, in NL it can snow often and a lot. Snow is difficult to forecast and showers even more difficult. Last Saturday, looking at the various radars it became clear heavy snowshowers would enter the coastal area. KNMI insisted, based on three models for region (like HIRLAM) that the showers would enter the coast 150 km north of me. Had they looked at the current situation and the way the showers were moving, they could have known easily it was not going to be 150 km up north. They insisted and even did not give a warning for heavy snow as it was snowing heavily in the central and northern part of my province. I went on the roads and you could not see more than 200 m. 

I as in close contact with one of them and even in the moment he said "they should move up north again any time now"?? Not a single indicator, be it radar or satpictures showed any change wherever I looked. IThe showers did not move up orth nor west they just continued SE wards. Now...first they would change their course to east and than to north. The switch should have taken some time. It is looking at models especially that leads to these failures.

I think this is a problem in general with many meteorologists and climatologists: they have great faith in (numerical) models. In part rightfully so, but a critical look at the outcome seems to be missing at times.


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## belem (11 Fev 2013 às 13:37)

Well, that study is useful, mainly to locate the places with the higher chances of being the warmest during the summer.

What´s your opinion about this?


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## J.S. (11 Fev 2013 às 14:35)

My opinion is that the study was not that usefull. We all know in a very simple way where we can find hotspots: inland, low lying and as much sheltered from the see as possibly. The more south you move, the higher more solar energy per square meter you get. We all know why the Guadalquivir region gets so hot and you can expect the same everywhere else. 

Which takes us back to the disucssion: most Greek stations lack one of the parameters: they are all close to the sea or much closer to the sea, which explains at least my reservations. Or they are a t muchhigher altitudes.
The explanation that some sort of føhn is always blowing etc: I don't buy that. So you have crete a rather narrow Island but somehow the sea DOES influence the high annual temperature (which is perfectly explicable) but somehow th same see does not affect the daytime max in that locality. I don't buy it at all. 

I was the one BTW who pointed Meso to Sparta, which he dismissed when his focus was solely on the Athinai region. When he saw things in a broader context, Sparta became viable. But even for Sparta, the proximity to the coast will have its influence more so than the interior of Iberia.  If we take a look at Aydin in Turkey, which is 80 km inland and at 7 m height we see a very similar climate to Sevilla or Cordoba. Sparta, at 210 m AND at about 20-30 km form the sea simply is not in the same position to get this kind of figures over a 30 year period. But in some years, with dominant and different weatherpatterns as we all know, this can happen. 

The best place for heat allround in summer (daytime heath) in greece is in the inlandplain of Thessaly. This should compare really well to inland Portugal and teh Guadalquivir regions. although the files I saw for Lamia pointed to 
+35 C. Not quite the 37 C we find at Cordoba or Andujar, Montoro etc.


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## belem (12 Fev 2013 às 22:29)

J.S. disse:


> Sorry, but if you look at those maps the simple distribution of the temperatures looked ridiculous to me. If you look at many many maps with isotherms, you soon notice when something is artificial or plainly wrong. And that is my thought on this interpolation excercise.
> 
> Moreover, if I look a the site of the IM. The way weatherstations are placed and maintained it does not look too professional to me. Now this is circumstantial "evidence" on the IM as a whole. The guys and girls that have studied this might be very good. But I think there are quite a few people on fora that know more than some professionalists, that is for sure. This is not Portugal specific.....Some pro's seem to never get out of the room and just look at the weather from a computerscreen or even rely on models more than reality. Suppose you study hotspots in a model, how about setting up some stations for a short period (a couple of months) to at least get some confirmation??



This study was mainly directed to find which are the places of with biggest probabilities (known at the time) to be the warmest, regarding the average of daily maxima, during these 3 months: June, July and August for the period of 1960-1990.
The temperatures are estimations.  Close estimations according to the authors. 
And what was told to me is that they did used «abrigos meteorológicos» data as well, to make the calculations, which is not the same as the IM weather stations that we know.
I already did gave a look (Google Earth) some years ago, on some of  the places and regions that are said to be the warmest in the summer and others that have an interesting potential:












[/URL]





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Vale do Tejo e Beira Baixa


[IMG=http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8431/imagemgoogleearthcu9.jpg][/IMG]

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[IMG=http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/2562/imagemgoogleearthzv0.jpg][/IMG]

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Aspecto da zona de Cerejais.







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Região do Douro.







Vale do Côa


Now my opinion:

Well, I think that this study, very probably did located some of the warmest areas.
This subject was already discussed «ad nauseam» on this topic «Local mais quente de Portugal ? 50°C é possível ? »
It´s possible to get more informations about this article by contacting the IM, but you´ll have to pay for it.
My sincere opinion, is that this study is very interesting and that could lead to even more accurate investigations.
To measure data on some of the hotspots, could be also really interesting.


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## Mesogiakos (17 Fev 2013 às 22:45)

J.S. disse:


> .
> The explanation that some sort of føhn is always blowing etc: I don't buy that. So you have crete a rather narrow Island but somehow the sea DOES influence the high annual temperature (which is perfectly explicable) but somehow th same see does not affect the daytime max in that locality. I don't buy it at all.
> 
> I was the one BTW who pointed Meso to Sparta, which he dismissed when his focus was solely on the Athinai region. When he saw things in a broader context, Sparta became viable. But even for Sparta, the proximity to the coast will have its influence more so than the interior of Iberia.  If we take a look at Aydin in Turkey, which is 80 km inland and at 7 m height we see a very similar climate to Sevilla or Cordoba. Sparta, at 210 m AND at about 20-30 km form the sea simply is not in the same position to get this kind of figures over a 30 year period. But in some years, with dominant and different weatherpatterns as we all know, this can happen.
> ...




Well you should buy the foehn when Crete is involved.Sorry but you have no idea of what Crete is capable of doing due to it's topography.If you had monitor Crete better you would know.It is simply amazing and very difficult indeed to understand.But all the stations around South Crete both from NOA and HNMS shows us that in the summer it rocks with foehn winds while North Crete gets it the winter .Also if you spend more time on Crete you would see that the summer mean maxes is extremely elevated in South Crete for areas in the coast due to the foehn.On the other hand  in the North part of Crete you can see the maxes in the winter are affected in the areas susceptible to foehn winds when these blow.Check Falasarna station for example in the winter.I am telling you Crete does not need anyone to show it's power and how complicated it is.Come back to me and talk to me about Crete in 20 years time (minimum time at face value for Crete) then I might listen to you especially when Crete is involved.I monitor it 15 years and still learn new stuff.Plus do you even read the topic?I ve said time and time again that the summer mean maxes in the Messara valley around Sivas and Moires are off the charts and also this is year round for mean maxes ,they compare with Spartan summers easily due to the effect from foehn both from south and north blockage of the mountains.Crete is far too amazing geomorphologically to fit the logic of random observers.We have a Cretan guy over in the UK forum and if you check my conversations with him you will understand how complicated Crete is.

As for Sparta  it is not ''20 km'' from the sea.I give the exact distance in earlier posts.At that time I only had data from Sparta only for two years,now however I have the long terms stats for Sparta plus we see very well from the NOA station the constant foehn winds it gets from Parnonas and Taygetus mountains in the summer  coupled with it's distance from the sea.It is among the most inland cities in Greece from the sea.Only Serres in Greece is more inland than Sparta.But Serres is too north (even though Serres is one tough bitch in summer mean maxes as well).Sparta is by far and without a doubt the strongest in all of Greece in summer mean maxes.

Secondly Lamia is not in Thessaly (lol) but in Sterea Ellada and it is only 10-13km from the sea.It's mean maxes for the long term  data from HNMS are more than one 1C lower than inland Athens due to the fact that inland Athens is more to the south.For example the notorious Nea Filadelfeia in Athens is at about 14-15km away from the sea and beats the crap out of Lamia in long term statistics.As for Thessaly it must be like your Douro area.Some good potential but  too north again and the warmest systematically you will find is around Larisa due to the increase of the altitude as you go inside the Thessaly valley.However even downtown Athens beats Larisa in the summer mean maxes.Here is how downtown Athens and Larisa compare the last 30 years in summer mean maxes from the official WMO stevenson stations (not to mention the huge differences between the Nea Filadelfia suburb and Larisa).I found this in a Greek meteo site but you get the drift.






http://www.meteoclub.gr/themata/egkyklopaideia/4900-klimatika-dedomena-thisiou-meros-b

Now take the 34.3C July mean max of downtown Athens the last 30 years and the 34.7C mean max of cental Attica basin in Nea Filadelfeia and try to get around the Sparta mean max.If Athens manages locally 34.7C the last 30 years then pretty damn sure Sparta will be off the charts.

Also here is a breakdown of the top mean maxes Greece had last July which was the warmest ever in Greece's meteorological history.It will help you better understand how Greece behaves in terms of summer mean maxes.

*Greece's top stations for July 2012 mean maxes*



> Sparta (NOA) 38.3°C
> Sivas,South Crete (NOA) 38.2°C
> Serres (HNMS) 38.0°C
> Lamia (HNMS) 37.3°C
> ...






Using the above stats in the link for the Athens Observatory I calculated the summer means of Seville from KNMI and run a comparison.Athens gives a simple summer mean of *28,03C* and Seville *27,2C* the past 30 summers. Athens simply beats the crap out of Seville and any area in Europe in summer means.It is easy to understand that the combination of high mean maxes and suffocating mean minimums in the summer would do the trick.The Athenians experience without a doubt the warmest summers overall in the continent and if it wasnt for the low humidity during the summer in Athens then it would be hell living in the Greek capital (well it still is now but the extremely dry Attica climate helps in the summer)






So for a quick recap.The warmest area annually in Europe would be somewhere in South Crete and with the data we currently have Palaiohora is the warmest area both from the HNMS and NOA stations in all of Europe.I doubt you will find something higher outside South Crete in Europe.If we indeed find something then it is almost certain that again this would be in South Crete.

In terms of highest mean maxes in Europe.Inland Andalusia for sure takes first spot.Viable competitors from other countries are the plains of Catania in Italy,Guadiana valley in Portugal,and Sparta valley in Greece.The strongest of them all outside IP I reckon is Sparta and I also reckon that Sparta beats any area in Portugal in summer mean maxes.

In terms of highest mean minimums during the summer in Europe by far it would be in Attica in Greece.Chiefly the port of Piraeus where in the mid summer nights you hardly get one or two nights below 25C.

The warmest area in Europe during the summer overall without a doubt would be somewhere in the Attica basin.The simple summer mean of downtown Athens for the last 30 years is above 28C.I have no doubt that areas close to Elefsina or west of Nea Filadelfeia can beat the Athens Observatory values.

Save from the highest mean maximum Greece gets all the ''heat'' credit at a European level and even has the area of Sparta to compete head on with inland Andalusia.


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## J.S. (18 Fev 2013 às 09:18)

What I get from you and your reasoning is this:

- You focus so much on your country and its "specialities" that you forget that same things may apply elsewhere. You say the geopgraphy gives way to very complex situations. However: there is no reason to think these, similar or different but significant things may happen in other countries with large mountains. Your argument on fohn is nearly the same in discussion on this topic over here and on the Spanish Meteored. a "superrecalientado" (superreheating) I remember as an argument over there....because of some føhn.

- If I understood you correctly (you pointed me to a link, but I guess you meant the july 2012 av. max table?) you deduced things from one month? If so that it is not valid. 

- Also: the average for Sevilla from 1971-2000 for july is 27,4. There is no doubt the period 1983-2012 is warmer. Probably not 0,6 C warmer but warmer it is without a doubt. I would not say a few tenths of a degree is "beating the crap" out of anything. Moreover: a heatisle effect in athens has been studied and proven and it is a bit of a miracle that Athens would not be much warmer as the warm sea would keep the nights warm. 

- The warmest average daytime max for Cordoba is 39,5 C. That is 1,2 C warmer than any place anywhere in Greece. Should we say it beats the hell out of greece or similar things?

- The warmest series over an extended period ever in Europe was 17 consecutive above 40,0 C in Amareleja and Cordoba in july-august 2003. Cordoba got 42,5 C as an average over the period. I know Amareleja was a bit warmer and if I remember correctly it was 43,4 C. 

- Average temperatures mean little for heat experience. It are the daytime maxima because these are simply the highest you'll experience.  if you want to use hyperboles than for such an experience (hell0 the southern interior of the Iberian Peninsula seems to be the correct place to use them and Greece is a good second.

To my mind, most of the warmest areas in Europe are pretty close with Greece having the highest minima (and therefor) averages.
The hottest daytime maxima on average in summer are found in the Iberian  Peninsula and if we base ourselves on factual data, it is the Guadalquivir region and nowhere else.


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## belem (18 Fev 2013 às 10:40)

Well, nothing substituts real measured data on the place.

So far the lack of weather cover in several key places is the factual data that I know about.

We can only say: «by now», «AFAIK», «according to the current knowledge».

To be warmest place on daily maxima it has to be a relatively well sheltered area, inland and at low altitude, not on a open valley or a place close to the sea.
The sun energy difference by latitude, can´t explain why several places are warmer in the summer, when it are even further from the Equator. 
There much more factors that only latitude.
The warmest places on Earth, during the summer, aren´t the equatorial ones.

Other things are just theories and many times biased ones. This turns many times on an endless and fruitless debate.

And if people want to talk about opinions, well go ahead, but opinions are always opinions. 
 I have to agree, that it may be interesting and a progress may be expected, but this can only be possible when people have an open mind.


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## J.S. (18 Fev 2013 às 12:29)

The debate to my mind is not entirely fruitless at all. I find all the data supplied here very interesting. In general I have an interest in those peculiar places all over Europe and Greece has been on my radar for that reason too.

What I personally don't like or find unhelpfull is making it some sort of competition. Using hyperboles ("beat the crap out of" "humiliates" or similar things) when differences are small, uncertain or unsure to me clearly adds to the bias you also point to. And, there is always someone who has a bigger one, isn't it.

We have it in NL too. Some weatherbuffs in the northeast of NL call their area "The Golden Triangle". In their mind it is always colder, more snow more wintry *by far) then elsewhere. Somehow, they are proud and with that pride comes their debunking of other areas in NL. Of course, NL is small, is very flat and has a lot of maritime influence. for the lattittude we are almost the mildest place on the planet. Only western Canada and the Brittish Isles being milder...
Differences are very small between the coldest and warmest place when you do not have any mountain range...But the biggest weatherfreaks also are the ones that love to use hyperboles, exaggerations etc.

Teh fun thing is: you cannot change reality. Of course, with such small difference (about 1 C on average in winter between the coldest and warmest place) it is certainly not always one way. I have said this on that forum so many times, but no no...So when on 13 january the frostperiod started and -7 was predicted for my region, one guy said: it never gets that cold over there, so I don't believe it. So I said:: sure, you base yourself on Vlissingen KNMI but that is far from representative. I predicted my place and many others would get well below that. Indeed we went down to -11 - -12 C.
And that went on for about a week.

After a week, the tables seemed to turn and my "competer" rejoiced that now, his area would make up the difference....Unfortunately we had clear spells and a thick snowcover and the restof Nl did not. The difference became bigger and bigger. we also had lots of snow that did not reach the north or not as much...I really ahd to laugh. The guy could not have picked out a worse situation to start this "battle". When the news came that below -273,15 C was possible, the remark was made that it was probably measured in my province (haha)..

To me, it is useless to be proud of anything and all this bias takes a way a lot of credibility and I note that, if I have time, I check and double check data etc from those people. They cannot be trusted here, they want to bend reality if it would be possible and come with all sorts of reasons which show they have a lot of knowledge but only have to use it in the right way now. At least, that is how I see it...


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## belem (18 Fev 2013 às 13:56)

Well, I said that these debates aren´t necessarily fruitless, given the conditions that I have posted above (IMO).


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## Mesogiakos (18 Fev 2013 às 16:29)

J.S. disse:


> What I get from you and your reasoning is this:
> 
> - You focus so much on your country and its "specialities" that you forget that same things may apply elsewhere. You say the geopgraphy gives way to very complex situations. However: there is no reason to think these, similar or different but significant things may happen in other countries with large mountains. Your argument on fohn is nearly the same in discussion on this topic over here and on the Spanish Meteored. a "superrecalientado" (superreheating) I remember as an argument over there....because of some føhn.
> 
> ...



Mate dont know what you are on about.It's not rocket science.I gave you the link for the entire summer months for Athens.Use google translate if you dont understand Greek.Then I added on top of this the July 2012 to help you understand how Greece's hot spots behave in extreme circumstances since you didnt even know that Lamia was closer to the sea than inland Athens or that it was not in Thessaly.Whenever I deduce something I always do it on long terms stats and not on the example of one month.The example of one month was just for you to understand better Greece's hotspots

What I did was simply calculated the Athens means against Seville and yes Athens is overall warmer for the entire summer for 0.8C. Yep this is significant.

Plus who cares what you like or not in a ''heat experience''.This is irrelevant.I also like chocolate in my ice cream,who gives a damn?.The point being is that the Attica basin is by far the warmest area of Europe on average during the summer and this has a double significance since 40% of Greece's population lives there.

Now I assume you are talking about Crete when I stress it's complexity on the foehns.Well I stressed it bsc a)you did not even bother to read the topic where I answer all your questions before and b) bsc come on this is Crete.Just open a map and then talk to me again on how complex geomorhopology it has.

Finally spare me on how I express my self or your sensitivities on my ''hyperbole''.Go preach your children mate not me.


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## Mesogiakos (18 Fev 2013 às 16:51)

J.S. disse:


> What I personally don't like or find unhelpfull is making it some sort of competition. Using hyperboles ("beat the crap out of" "humiliates" or similar things) when differences are small, uncertain or unsure to me clearly adds to the bias you also point to. And, there is always someone who has a bigger one, isn't it.



Again who gives a shit on what you like,think or perceive mate?I believe wholeheartedly that Athens beats the living crap out of Seville and I have shown it time and time again.

Let me make it even clearer.Seville bows to Athens and cries when it come to the question of what is the warmest area of Europe in the summer.Right?So why do u stress so much.


I also did not like that you were incapable of producing the study I asked for the Davis stations and I also dont like that you dont know and you are worthless on how to do basic research.Did I make a big deal out of it?I can however if you want to turn it into a personal critique.No problemo mate.I can also attack you personally until the end of time.Chill dude.

Your likes,dislikes and what not are irrelevant the gist is that Seville bows to Athens.Is that better now?

PS.Did I say that Athens beats the crap out of Seville?


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## J.S. (18 Fev 2013 às 23:30)

You use a lot of words for someone who doesn't care. Athens has the highest average summertemperatures. I can agree on that, seems logical. My personal preference and that of most meteorologists is in the maximum temperatures and that is why I am asked by Dutch meteorologists on the climate and weather of the Iberian Peninsula each summer to give them those high daytime max temperatures. It is what draws most attention it seems. I am not saying this is good, correct, bad etc..it is just the way it is. Lie we all know the lowest temperature in Antarctica..but what is the average? And what was the highest ever?? Etc.


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## Mesogiakos (19 Fev 2013 às 07:09)

Ok mate again who cares on what you think or perceive that draws the most attention?Do you have any relevant study to proove us quantitatively that the general population or meteorologists are drawn particularly from a specific meteorological parameter ?

Nah...I figured so.So take your random,biased,subjective hypothesis in the comfort of your private surroundings.I for one believe from what I have seen that most people are interested a lot on which is on average the warmest areas in Europe both in the summer and annually.So who's right?I say I am!Now prove me wrong if you can.


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## J.S. (19 Fev 2013 às 08:51)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Ok mate again who cares on what you think or perceive that draws the most attention?Do you have any relevant study to proove us quantitatively that the general population or meteorologists are drawn particularly from a specific meteorological parameter ?
> 
> Nah...I figured so.So take your random,biased,subjective hypothesis in the comfort of your private surroundings.I for one believe from what I have seen that most people are interested a lot on which is on average the warmest areas in Europe both in the summer and annually.So who's right?I say I am!Now prove me wrong if you can.



Well I care and that is enough for me.

How objective is "beating the crap out of" or where warmth equals "hell"? Or is that more your personal percetpion of a 0,6 K difference. 

It seems you are trying to impress people with...a temperature. Seems there are more important matters to by far the most people, even meteorologists it seems.
Ever heared on any weatherprogram "the daytime averages were very high in Athens!" I did not. And that is what people remember. If it isnot important to you, why argue. if you know how things are and the public opinion is irrelevant to you, no need to argue. But it is clear you find it very important. Not succeeding in your goal to impress people with your local temperature, you go to great lengths and use hyperboles. Which in most cases gets you nowhere. You overscream yourself in my view. What do you think? "If I say itlouder, they will believe me or will think it is important!" Not really. It will get ad hominem, because it is the tone that makes the music, as the French say.d

28,0 C is just nothing special. It gets 28,0 C in The Netherlands every summer. I think 15 times or so. 28,0 is a figure that does not impress. 40 C or more is something most Europeans never or rarely experience so to most that is what impresses. yes, also meteorologists. Even if 28,0 C in itself is indeed an extremely high value. It is like the grasminimum (at 10 cm height): the general public does not care even most people over here never mention it. Moreless the same thing (and I cannot scientifically prove that, just my very subjective thought).


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## Mesogiakos (20 Fev 2013 às 09:14)

Again who gives a shit on what your subjective bullshit likes or dislikes say.The point being is that Athens is by far the warmest area of Europe in the summer and I say that many people are interested in knowing this.

Athens beats the crap out of any area anywhere in the continent on a concrete,steady and well observed manor each and every summer.That is what people care to know and are interested to know as a fact

In your parallel universe of bullshit subjectivity you can cry your heart out all you want.No one will listen.Unless and until you can provide us with a quantitative study that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that ''the public or meteorologists'' are drawn to a specific meteorological parameter then I suggest you take your pathetic whinning in the comfort of your private surrounding.

The fact is that Athens is the European champion in summer heat.You dont like my tone?Well tough I could give a rats arse.I dont give a shit frankly what you like or not.You will get each and every time the response that your crap logic deserves.Now bow to Athens and provide us with the said study or let us make two the occasions on which you failed to provide tangible research evidence on your crap subjectivity issues.You are only making a fool of yourself by being incapable to back up your arguments for the second time.I backed up mine with all the relevant hard data.


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## J.S. (20 Fev 2013 às 11:27)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Again who gives a shit on what your subjective bullshit likes or dislikes say.



I do. 



> The point being is that Athens is by far the warmest area of Europe in the summer and I say that many people are interested in knowing this.



You really seem to think that, yes.



> Athens beats the crap out of any area anywhere in the continent on a concrete,steady and well observed manor each and every summer.That is what people care to know and are interested to know as a fact



And that is your version of objectivity I assume.



> In your parallel universe of bullshit subjectivity you can cry your heart out all you want.No one will listen.



Apparantly you do. I have frequented other fora and it seemed to me that not too many bought some of the assertions you made. But that is to be expected on fora. Not much arguiing if we all agreed always, isn't it.



> Unless and until you can provide us with a quantitative study that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that ''the public or meteorologists'' are drawn to a specific meteorological parameter then I suggest you take your pathetic whinning in the comfort of your private surrounding.



I was being subjective but you did not read that I think. Just my humble opinion (the word "humble" is one I am not going to look up for you).



> The fact is that Athens is the European champion in summer heat.You dont like my tone? Well tough I could give a rats arse. I dont give a shit frankly what you like or not.



I think it matters a whole lot to you, hence your constant itteration of the same subject. I already agreed that on average this can well be the case.



> You will get each and every time the response that your crap logic deserves.Now bow to Athens and provide us with the said study or let us make two the occasions on which you failed to provide tangible research evidence on your crap subjectivity issues.You are only making a fool of yourself by being incapable to back up your arguments for the second time.I backed up mine with all the relevant hard data.



Thanks for making it clear again that this is a very personal matter to you, but expect a personal reply. it has got little to do with athens and its heat. That is what you want us to think. Any observer with some sense of psychology knows that Athens and its temperature are an extension of your persona hence the unbalanced, biased wording and allergy to people with some other thoughts that could threaten that image you want others to have of yourself. It would not matter which subject it is to you. Anything can be used to blow yourself up, Athens and its climate are just a tool and getting accurate data on it was and never will be your goal I am convinced. Nothing new but it is a peculair one. Most people take the history of their country as an extension of themselves etc. Climate seems a bit odd to impress some, but on these fora you could stand a chance of course.


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## Mesogiakos (21 Fev 2013 às 02:46)

J.S. disse:


> Thanks for making it clear again that this is a very personal matter to you, but expect a personal reply. it has got little to do with athens and its heat. That is what you want us to think. Any observer with some sense of psychology knows that Athens and its temperature are an extension of your persona hence the unbalanced, biased wording and allergy to people with some other thoughts that could threaten that image you want others to have of yourself. It would not matter which subject it is to you. Anything can be used to blow yourself up, Athens and its climate are just a tool and getting accurate data on it was and never will be your goal I am convinced. Nothing new but it is a peculair one. Most people take the history of their country as an extension of themselves etc. Climate seems a bit odd to impress some, but on these fora you could stand a chance of course.




Oh so now let me get it straight. Apart from an incapable researcher with little or no sense of how to do or provide basic research you are also an online psychologist.

Apparently you own personal biases and skewed view of the world in some way finds practical application to someone who is vocal about something.I on the other hand believe that your deep seated complexes when faced with strife and strong personalities such as my self give way to surface all your feelings of personal inadequacies.

But it's ok m8 in society you will always have people vocal who will shut you up  immediately just for seeing your superficial, uneducated and deeply seated psychological complexes projected on to them.Deal with it. 

Tell me something does it hurt so much that you are systematically ridiculed by someone like me when you can't provide basic research to back up your bullshit? Is your online psychological evaluations a way to make you feel better towards a cognitively superior user?Most importantly am I not a better online psychologist that you?lol.

I mean honestly do you believe that I seriously care what you believe others think about me?And from the internet on all places? Should I be impressed by someone who obviously has a difficulty in public speech defending his arguments and instead invokes personal stuff  for impression management? Again in the untrained eye this shows the superficiality with which you probably lead your life or structure your relationships.Probably a really boring and fixated person with loads of issues for my liking tbh.

Spare me and cry me a river dude.Who gives a shit if you like my tone. Go give a lecture to ur obviously retarded circle of friends (if you have any that is) and not me.Maybe u ll get some success there.

PS.Now bow to the summer heat of Athens!!It beats the crap out of your beloved Iberia during the summer and it will always do so!!


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## J.S. (21 Fev 2013 às 10:56)

Your response is inline with what I thought. Your last sentence you put in always and it is clearly trolling, trying to provoke someone and also shows what this all means to you. But that was clear already over the past few years.

Some remarks of you throughout this discussion shows how you dismiss valid problems with the station. I now see that it is in a village. I also see  that you think that double checking with some other unknown station means we can be sure it is oke. However, ti s does nothing to add the necessary knowledge on the station site, ubication, surroundings etc.

Here some remarks of yours:
"It's a 2000 people town/village.It cant really be ''urban''.If you can find pics from the NOA site let me know ,I am searching for those too,I had no luck.No worries.The data seem pretty good and accurate if we contrast them with the other stations in South Crete both from HNMS and NOA."

"I think the Davis fan aspirated stations are really good in solving this issue to be honest.They are very accurate in temperature sensitivities provided they are correctly installed .As I said if you compare the daily data between Palaiohora (NOA) and Palaiohora (HNMS) stations they are very compatible albeit the later being slightly warmer.
"Anyways I think we are splitting hair here.It's a big village actually.Not really urban with really remarkable climatological conditions due to it's amazing topography.If you check pictures of the town of Palaiohora you will see how complex terrain ,with mountains ,hills etc it is.It's fascinating!"

"The data I believe are pretty good and accurate."

"Ok then the other station from HNMS,the WMO accredited one has ''solved'' it...and surprise surprise it's even warmer.What can the 10 vehicles that pass every 20 minutes from the centre of Palaiohora can do?And the station is not even in the center. Come on it's a big village.No urban heat island ,not full of vehicles etc"

"doubt it has an impact on the station.Besides the HNMS station is even warmer and it is a WMO station."


Here some points of mine:

1) WMO are guidelines and not standards, which is painfully clear when we look at Portuguese stations for example. 

2) Heatisles build up because: lack of vegetation and moist mean all energy can be putin warming up the air (not into evaporation).
Concrete,asphalt etc are good in retaining heath. Much better than soil (sand especially for instance). This heath is reradiated back
into the localatmosphere which means nights are much warmer than the surrounding countryside, most of all if there is some vegetation over there.
4) trees, buidlings etc keep thewind at bay. The air is more stable and there is less mixing of colder air above with warmer air on the ground.
This means that heath can build up much better compared to open terrain. Again, a small village or even a large garden in the open field 
is perfectly capable of causing this effect.

Talking about WMO: WMO guidelines explicitly note that there should be no buildings or trees in a 200 m radius. There is a reason for that....

Davis aspirated weatherscreens are PRONE to warming. it is the non artificially screen that is the cooler one under high insolation conditions as compared to Stevensonscreens and actually most other screens.

From the WMO report of 2011, which included among others a passive and an artifical ventilated Davisscreen:

"Other artificially ventilated screens gave disappointing results, with quite warm
temperatures in case of solar radiation. This may be due to their design and/or some
faults in the ventilation during the test (dust and sand reducing the ventilation
efficiency). For example, the ventilated DAVIS gave worst results (warmer
temperatures during day) than the passive DAVIS, which was not expected."

WMO report: INSTRUMENTS AND OBSERVING METHODS
REPORT No. 106/ WMO/TD-No. 1579


So unless other info is available on the station, we can conclude that this station does not come close to WMO guidelines, that a village is prone to warming. That an intercomparison with a Davis centilated screen is at best to be researched further, that an intercomparision is not helpfull if nothing is known about the exact location of a station. 

Your dismissal of Spanish stations because of similar faulty ubication seems in stark contrast with your acceptance when it comes to Greek stations. The Athens case, of which we can find detailed reports of a very strong heat isle effect was also met with the same, noncritical approach of yours. Athens, however, seems is mostly seen in (recent) research as a typical example of a large heatisle effect.


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## belem (21 Fev 2013 às 14:07)

The Alcoutim lowland area has about the same average of Seville  or even more (by a little), because we had a 25 year old observation data from this place (to think realistically on this), let it be the warmest summer month average or the annual average, and it´s clearly not the warmest zone on the Guadiana valley (for several reasons, that were discussed on this forum and with which the official IM also agrees), so this gives you a lot of room to think.
The ideal would a be several decade observation, but we are still far from that.
Now imagine, to determine this, from a big landlocked area (inland and lowland Douro, Tagus, Murcia, Guadalquivir, Guadiana, etc...).
Honestly I don´t  need it, to realize that this subject isn´t really that simple and that further studies are essential.

So if some people think that they already know everything about this, they just simply cannot be trusted.


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## Mesogiakos (21 Fev 2013 às 15:11)

J.S. disse:


> So unless other info is available on the station, we can conclude that this station does not come close to WMO guidelines, that a village is prone to warming. That an intercomparison with a Davis centilated screen is at best to be researched further, that an intercomparision is not helpfull if nothing is known about the exact location of a station.
> .




Total bullshit of the distorting kind.Which once again goes to show that you dont even bother to read what I have said in the past or ur crappy cognitive skills fail you by much First of all I can not find this source.I checked all the online wmo database and I cant find the direct link or pdf file

here is an example of how the reports from wmo are published online

http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/www/IMOP/publications/IOM-106_Ghardaia/App1_Thermometer-screens.pdf

Now a) provide the full working link to double check on you.
b) even if you havent distorted the main passage above (which I can take it almost as granted since you do not give us the FULL text) the study above say nothing about the specific Davis model.

Now u might wanna hire an intern or something who can help you focus to read my  posts specifically.I have never ever said that the Davis stations from NOA comply with WMO standards.So what is this bullshit of yours on top of weak impression management ?

What I have said is that the Davis Pro2 fan aspirated stations of NOA are very accurate.So even if I take in face value this copy pasted crap and even if bona fide I accept that you are not hiding,distorting and changing the FULL text of the report this says jack shit on the accuracy of the NOA stations. 

Now regarding the bullshit of warming in a village of 2000 simply goes to show that you dont know what to say,have run out of arguments or your are simply a worthless troll.I mean really what kind of warming can you have in a village of 2000 people?lol.

No matter how much you cry as I said we have the WMO station from Palaiohora from HNMS and surprise surprise it is even warmer than the Davis station from NOA. But ur pathetic attempt to somehow bring your personal stuff against me has once again made to ignore this fact.Spare us mate.South Crete is the ULTIMATE player in Europe in annual temps no matter if you copy paste a random piece and no matter how much u are trying to hide from us the full text without  providing the direct link.

Finally when Athens is involved.Again who gives a shit on what you think my personal stance on the issue is.The point is that even if Athens has the worlds greatest UHI this does not change anything.Meaning that to date there is NO single WMO station in Europe to manage to beat the WMO Athens station summer means.Even if you put a station at the heart of Seville ,Athens  will beat the crap out of Seville despite the UHI in both areas.The central question is not the UHI which is obvious for a central station but the natural dynamic of the area and Athens has the strongest summer dynamic ever since the late 1800's if we check the Observatory station when the area was not nearly as populated as today.

To make a long story short.Your bullshit copy paste doesnt say anything on the specific model of Davis in Palaiohora. Secondly cry us a river about the so called warming of a 2000 population village.Thirdly we have the WMO station in Palaiohora which is even warmer than the NOA Davis station and which u intentionally ignore.Lastly as far as Athens is concerned there is,there was and there will never be a single WMO station in Europe to ever beat it's summer means consistently.Easy peasy lol

Now I dont think I should stress this again but in Greek we say a phrase which is along the lines ''repetition is the mother of knowledge'' so bow both to South Crete for it's annual means and to Athens for its summer means.It will be a good exercise for you!

Finally give us the full TEXT or the direct link to check your credibility on this irrelevant Davis report which has nothing to do with the Palaiohora station.


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## J.S. (22 Fev 2013 às 00:02)

Mesogiakos disse:


> Total bullshit of the distorting kind. etc



So a short translation:

1) You think I forged the WMO report. 

2) A village of 2000 people can have no heatisle effect.

3) Because the p'hora is an WMO station it therefor is correct and measures correctly.

4) Athens is the warmest place in Europe in summer.



1) http://www.wmo.int/gsearch/gresults_en.html?q=iom-106&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

On page 54 the third bullit says exactly what I quoted.

2) http://www.knmi.nl/samenw/hawa/pdf/Handbook_H01_H06.pdf

Point 1.4 makes clear how you should measure. The exact guidelines are the Dutch (stringent I think) standard. In the literature you'll find a distance to objects of 4 to 10 times the height of the object. So a 10 m object is at least 40 to 100 m away. Also note the clear epxression about roads, trees etc. it is next to impossible to measure that way in a village. That is not without a reason

3) WMO are guidelines. These are not rules. hence you can measure according to the guidelines and introduce large urban influences.

 4) Athens has a strong urban heat isle effect, particularly the western and central (industrialised) zones. 

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s007040200006?LI=true

Also search for: Sustainable Urban Future in Southern Europe - What
about the Heat Island Effect?

Interesting for both Athens and Palaiochora is figure 2.3. it shows that the slightest small buildings immediately cause a stepp temperature rise. A park, located between the suburbs or village (low buildings not at the city centre) cools down but not to rural temperatures. Not at all.

Another, very recent study is this one "MONITORING AND FORECASTING OF URBAN HEAT ISLAND PHENOMENON IN TEN EUROPEAN CITIES"".

Again as expected it is noted that southern European cities are much more affected and especially in summer than more northern european ones. 

Athens can be the warmest, even without this effect when compared to many places west of it. The sea is warmer and that is a huge influence, the nighttime temperatures are higher because of this (see study). But due to the heatisle which is very prominent there (but also in sevilla for instance) a comparison is difficult to make and non meterological or geographical factors influence the data in Athens most of all.


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