The amazing annual mean temperatures of South Crete

[belem]

Ok while you are done playing with words the fact remains that there is no other area warmer than Palaiohora for the relevant period in geo Europe from the stations we have...And there wont be one... at least outside South Crete.

There won´t be?

I wouldn´t be that confident, mostly when lacking proof.

And honestly and sincerely, who cares, since there´s not enough data to conclude anything apart from my rational play with words, that A or B is not the entire universe in question.

Curiously, me and more people from this forum, already had a discussion, about which are the warmest areas in Portugal, during the summer. Firstly, we had to cross several different data, to locate the places with the best probabilities to reach big values. Many things confused us, such as lack of nearby weather stations (Portugal actually has lack of it in many places, compared with many countries) soil constitution, mountain chains, the fact that some places are much better to hold high night temperatures than the others and so on... The conclusion were that only after measuring weather data from several locations (that were identified by the probability study), we could increase the probabilities of having a clearer view (still not a conclusion that could take 30 years to be made).



So, I´m just applying with your European comparison, the same conclusion that I applied for Portugal. It´s nothing new and it´s terribly basic and simple. And for such big areas, as entire peninsulas, the limitations could only be even bigger!

We know what are the present known places from the IM weather stations with higher summer temperatures, but we would be lying to ourselves to say that they are the warmest places in Portugal in the summer.

The difference suggested by the probability studies, actually is so big, that the differences can be considered even laughable.

It´s a completely different environment, proven by a completely different vegetation composition and soil constitution...

Hum... I don´t see what´s the point of having an agreement, when what´s essential, is in disagreement.

 

[Mesogiakos]

Nós aqui criticamos vivamente as estações do INM por falta de manutenção, localização, etc., mas temos a noção que nos encontramos num país com poucos meios monetários.

Vens aqui festejar algo que nem seria algo de crítica por aqui, porque é uma estação dedicada à sua função climática.

Em relação à estação da HNMS é também totalmente desconhecida.

Tens alguma críticas, comentários dos residentes locais sobre essas estações? Poderão estar colocadas numa rua ou jardim da localidade? Têm manutenção frequente?

You can find out what locals say about South Crete here.

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...07-2012-mean-annual-temperatures/page__st__40

There is a local who comments on the topography and the characteristics of the area etc.He is from Lentas another very warm smaller village of South Crete.

Obviously you could criticize a station.I am simply saying the data from all the neighbouring stations are consistent and accurate.I mean they cant be all crap stations.Use ur common sense.Come on it's South Crete

 

[Mesogiakos]

There won´t be?

I wouldn´t be that confident, mostly when lacking proof.

And honestly and sincerely, who cares, since there´s not enough data to conclude anything apart from my rational play with words, that A or B is not the entire universe in question.

Curiously, me and more people from this forum, already had a discussion, about which are the warmest areas in Portugal, during the summer. Firstly, we had to cross several different data, to locate the places with the best probabilities to reach big values. Many things confused us, such as lack of nearby weather stations (Portugal actually has lack of it in many places, compared with many countries) soil constitution, mountain chains, the fact that some places are much better to hold high night temperatures than the others and so on... The conclusion were that only after measuring weather data from several locations (that were identified by the probability study), we could increase the probabilities of having a clearer view (still not a conclusion that could take 30 years to be made).



So, I´m just applying with your European comparison, the same conclusion that I applied for Portugal. It´s nothing new and it´s terribly basic and simple. And for such big areas, as entire peninsulas, the limitations could only be even bigger!

We know what are the present known places from the IM weather stations with higher summer temperatures, but we would be lying to ourselves to say that they are the warmest places in Portugal in the summer.

The difference suggested by the probability studies, actually is so big, that the differences can be considered even laughable.

It´s a completely different environment, proven by a completely different vegetation composition and soil constitution...

Hum... I don´t see what´s the point of having an agreement, when what´s essential, is in disagreement.

I am not drawing any definitive conclusion.I also agreed that 6 years is not much.It is a conviction obviously but the data support better this possibility.

They show us much better the amazing local conditions of South Crete.In fact Palaiohora in June 2007 did not drop below 36C (!) for 36 hours and this was shown by both stations!!!Actually the second HNMS station (at that time they were 2 HNMS stations in Palaiohora) did not drop below 38C for 24 hours because of the constant and very strong winds that were blowing for 2 days non stop.It was an amazing phenomenon of South Crete in an amazing summer.The daily mean on these days was 40C and 39C respectively

The complex topography of the area and the constant foehn winds make it ideal to be the European hot spot until we find an even more extreme one which in any case would be again somewhere in South Crete.


http://penteli.meteo.gr/meteosearch/data/paleochora/2007-06.txt

 

[Mesogiakos]

Speaking of the summer check out how Greek stations behaved nationally in the amazing last summer.The warmest summer EVER for Greece.

http://www.meteopt.com/forum/europa/will-athens-experience-warmest-summer-ever-europe-6640.html

Here is the table for Athens for the July mean maxes the last 30 years.An increase of 0.9C from 1971-2000 means. 34C being the climatic average,which is pretty good just 5km from the sea!

 

[belem]

I am not drawing any definitive conclusion.I also agreed that 6 years is not much.It is a conviction obviously but the data support better this possibility.

They show us much better the amazing local conditions of South Crete.In fact Palaiohora in June 2007 did not drop below 36C (!) for 36 hours and this was shown by both stations!!!Actually the second HNMS station (at that time they were 2 HNMS stations in Palaiohora) did not drop below 38C for 24 hours because of the constant and very strong winds that were blowing for 2 days non stop.It was an amazing phenomenon of South Crete in an amazing summer.The daily mean on these days was 40C and 39C respectively

The complex topography of the area and the constant foehn winds make it ideal to be the European hot spot until we find an even more extreme one which in any case would be again somewhere in South Crete.


http://penteli.meteo.gr/meteosearch/data/paleochora/2007-06.txt

Yes, that´s very interesting, many thanks for the share.

That reminds me of heat extreme events. We can expect really unusual temperatures to occur.
´
Regarding the average values for Palaiohora, I see nice low temps, but not so impressive high temps.

To form a definitive opinion, about where´s the hottest spot in South Europe, I would need a lot more data. But that particular location in South Crete is surely one of the warmest. Presently probably the warmest known. But that doesn´t mean that´s the warmest and that we have definitive evidence about it.


I´m not saying that´s warmer, but I have seen a location in Spain (close to Murcia? Not sure now, but I´ll try to find the data), with average low temps, for the 2 warmest months, of about 26ºc.

I think that this weather station, is one of those that you think that it shouldn´t be taken in account, etc, etc... But I would like to know more details about it.
Maybe there´s something true on it, who knows...

I think that places with surrounding rocky soils, are usually better to hold temperatures at night. Chalky soils in particular, are very good for that, but it aren´t the only ones.

Local winds and the orography design, of course, are very important as well.

I know a place in the south coast of Arrabida mountain, that whenever I visited it during the summer (sometimes at very late hours of the night), it was surprisingly warm at night (up to 25ºc and sometimes even more) with some nearly constant dry warm wind gusts, when some other places in the area, were having a moderate amene night ( some parts of north side were actually with almost or none wind and dew was depositing on the plant leaves).

Local weather data however, didn´t covered these values, since there´s no weather station there and the closest one, was having very different data.

So this is just an example, about how even so further north and close to the ocean (with upwelling currents), nights can be relatively warm.

In some areas of this mountain but more inland and at low altitude, I have also experienced incredibly high values.


Here it´s the aspect of Arrabida mountain (on your right):

Much further North, but also inland, surrounded by big mountains and at low altitude of the Coa valley, for example, which I did visited in October, the valley floor was fresh at night, especially when faced to the North, but when you move just 10 meters above, it´s like being in a completely different place (much warmer). However, the daily highs up there ( just about 10 meters above the valley floor level) during the day, were and are pretty high as well.

Then, local microclimates, can turn this subject very, very complex.

Thanks anyway, for bringing up the also fascinating Crete example.

Just as curiosity, that place have sea turtles nesting? Or it had on the past?

 

[Ferreiro]

Viewing the web of NOA weather observatories (which are not official, and are therefore not accepted neither by the Greek weather service HNMS nor by the World Meteorological Organization), most of the NOA network stations are located on rooftops/terraces/balconys of buildings where are the offices of the local councils. That is the poor quality of the NOA network of weather stations.

On the other hand, Southern Crete is at a latitude of 34 degrees North, which equals the latitude of Morocco in the Western Mediterranean. At the same latitude, the Iberian peninsula is clearly warmer than Greece.

 

[Mesogiakos]

Yes, that´s very interesting, many thanks for the share.

That reminds me of heat extreme events. We can expect really unusual temperatures to occur.
´
Regarding the average values for Palaiohora, I see nice low temps, but not so impressive high temps.

To form a definitive opinion, about where´s the hottest spot in South Europe, I would need a lot more data. But that particular location in South Crete is surely one of the warmest. Presently probably the warmest known. But that doesn´t mean that´s the warmest and that we have definitive evidence about it.


I´m not saying that´s warmer, but I have seen a location in Spain (close to Murcia? Not sure now, but I´ll try to find the data), with average low temps, for the 2 warmest months, of about 26ºc.

I think that this weather station, is one of those that you think that it shouldn´t be taken in account, etc, etc... But I would like to know more details about it.
Maybe there´s something true on it, who knows...

I think that places with surrounding rocky soils, are usually better to hold temperatures at night. Chalky soils in particular, are very good for that, but it aren´t the only ones.

Local winds and the orography design, of course, are very important as well.

I know a place in the south coast of Arrabida mountain, that whenever I visited it during the summer (sometimes at very late hours of the night), it was surprisingly warm at night (up to 25ºc and sometimes even more) with some nearly constant dry warm wind gusts, when some other places in the area, were having a moderate amene night ( some parts of north side were actually with almost or none wind and dew was depositing on the plant leaves).

Local weather data however, didn´t covered these values, since there´s no weather station there and the closest one, was having very different data.

So this is just an example, about how even so further north and close to the ocean (with upwelling currents), nights can be relatively warm.

In some areas of this mountain but more inland and at low altitude, I have also experienced incredibly high values.


Here it´s the aspect of Arrabida mountain (on your right):

Much further North, but also inland, surrounded by big mountains and at low altitude of the Coa valley, for example, which I did visited in October, the valley floor was fresh at night, especially when faced to the North, but when you move just 10 meters above, it´s like being in a completely different place (much warmer). However, the daily highs up there ( just about 10 meters above the valley floor level) during the day, were and are pretty high as well.

Then, local microclimates, can turn this subject very, very complex.

Thanks anyway, for bringing up the also fascinating Crete example.

Just as curiosity, that place have sea turtles nesting? Or it had on the past?

Well 33.4C as a mean maximum for an area just 50-100 meters from the sea is something interesting you know.You wont see that often in European coasts apart maybe from the Attica peninsula and the extreme East Islands of Greece close to the Turkish coasts.

Now regarding the data of a 26C mean minimum in IP this is simply out of the question.Probably you are referring to that town where one automatic station (probably a non fan aspirated crappy one) had a mean annual of 21C and the other AEMET one in the same town was 17C. Or maybe you are referring to Cuevas Del Almazora bsc those data were also totally crap.Check out its new Davis Pro 2 Fan Aspirated to see the totally weak minimums and how crappy these data were.
http://www.cuevasdelalmanzora.org/fran1.html

The IP simply can not achieve the mean minimums of Greece, Italy and East Med in the summer.It's nearly impossible even if we take into account some kind of a super microclimate that might see higher minimums than the rest IP (debatable as to how much it can reach Greece's ''normal'' summer behavior in the minimums but let's give it to you).The IP can manage these minimums for only up to a few days in strong heatwaves and then it decreases dramatically compared to Greece.

I have no idea about the sea turtles though.I do recall that a specific kind was living near Gavdos island and somewhere near the south coasts of the Messara valley (near Lentas area) but nothing much tbh.

Obviously the local climates is something very interesting everywhere in the world.In fact this is even more interesting in Crete.You can go between very close areas and see dramatic temp differences.This is defo the strongest characteristic of Crete due to its extreme topography and geo morphology.Check out regularly the stations of Crete from the NOA site or HNMS to see how differently each area behaves.It is fascinating trust me!I even learn new stuff everyday and I am studying Greece's climatology the past 15 years.The reason why Palaiohora behaves as such is that it is surrounded and perfectly sheltered by mountains and hills.A panoramic pic of Palaiohora will help you see that.In the summer the prevailing and almost constant famous Meltemi winds (North winds) that blow in Greece make the South coasts of Crete receive warm winds as they travel through the mountains and hills giving this almost constant foehn day and night.Coupled with the town's extreme south location sheltered by the hills,mountains and warm waters of the Libyan sea you get to have these amazing minimums.At the same time the North coast during events of strong south winds get some hellish temps be it summer or winter.The North coasts can easily see up to 30C or above even in January when strong South winds blow from the Sahara again due to the foehn effect reversed this time.Not to mention the interior of the Messara valley where it has constantly extremely high mean maxes year round (for example the Sivas station of NOA last July had a mean maximum of 38.2C) since it is surrounded by mountains both from the South and North so you kinda have a double foehn effect there practically from any direction the wind blows but the minimums there are much weaker (even chilly for Greece's summer standards) since we dont have the moderating effect of the sea.

All in all the climatology of Crete is pretty amazing.Check it out.You will become addicted if you start studying it.Thank god we now have the more extended coverage from NOA so we can see these amazing differences.

 

[Mesogiakos]

Viewing the web of NOA weather observatories (which are not official, and are therefore not accepted neither by the Greek weather service HNMS nor by the World Meteorological Organization), most of the NOA network stations are located on rooftops/terraces/balconys of buildings where are the offices of the local councils. That is the poor quality of the NOA network of weather stations.

On the other hand, Southern Crete is at a latitude of 34 degrees North, which equals the latitude of Morocco in the Western Mediterranean. At the same latitude, the Iberian peninsula is clearly warmer than Greece.

That is why we double check the Palaiohora data against the HNMS station there.As I said the WMO station is even slightly warmer with minimal differences from the NOA one.No worries the data of the particular station are pretty accurate no matter how much you cry and bitch about.We have established this in Greek forums and conversations with the locals there,we know the Palaiohora,Lentas and other stations in South Crete from NOA are dead serious and accurate.The Palaiohora WMO station should be closer to 20.8C or 20.9C mean annual for that period so you get that for official dealings.In fact I dont mind one bit if you prefer the HNMS station as it destroys even more your beloved IP lol.

Besides that data I presented from NOA are just indicative and easier for everyone to see for the annual heat of S.Crete so this way you can cry even more and in a more straightforward way about South Crete .Wake up dedalus.South Crete beats the crap out of any location of Spain in the IP and you know that. Also remember how beautifully I deconstructed the argument that during the summer IP is warmer than Greece.Nah nah girl .Greece and especially the Attica peninsula can make the warmest area of the IP seem like the North Pole in summer means.Even Palaiohora beats Seville in the above period.Deal with it, Greece's climatology will always makes you cry your balls out be it summer or winter lol

 

[belem]

Well 33.4C as a mean maximum for an area just 50-100 meters from the sea is something interesting you know.You wont see that often in European coasts apart maybe from the Attica peninsula and the extreme East Islands of Greece close to the Turkish coasts.

Now regarding the data of a 26C mean minimum in IP this is simply out of the question.Probably you are referring to that town where one automatic station (probably a non fan aspirated crappy one) had a mean annual of 21C and the other AEMET one in the same town was 17C. Or maybe you are referring to Cuevas Del Almazora bsc those data were also totally crap.Check out its new Davis Pro 2 Fan Aspirated to see the totally weak minimums and how crappy these data were.
http://www.cuevasdelalmanzora.org/fran1.html

The IP simply can not achieve the mean minimums of Greece, Italy and East Med in the summer.It's nearly impossible even if we take into account some kind of a super microclimate that might see higher minimums than the rest IP (debatable as to how much it can reach Greece's ''normal'' summer behavior in the minimums but let's give it to you).The IP can manage these minimums for only up to a few days in strong heatwaves and then it decreases dramatically compared to Greece..

Well, I´l put here the graph later on when I have more time.
Yes, I agree about the minimums.
About the rest, we already know what happens.

Obviously the local climates is something very interesting everywhere in the world.In fact this is even more interesting in Crete.You can go between very close areas and see dramatic temp differences.This is defo the strongest characteristic of Crete due to its extreme topography and geo morphology.Check out regularly the stations of Crete from the NOA site or HNMS to see how differently each area behaves.It is fascinating trust me!I even learn new stuff everyday and I am studying Greece's climatology the past 15 years.The reason why Palaiohora behaves as such is that it is surrounded and perfectly sheltered by mountains and hills.A panoramic pic of Palaiohora will help you see that.In the summer the prevailing and almost constant famous Meltemi winds (North winds) that blow in Greece make the South coasts of Crete receive warm winds as they travel through the mountains and hills giving this almost constant foehn day and night.Coupled with the town's extreme south location sheltered by the hills,mountains and warm waters of the Libyan sea you get to have these amazing minimums.At the same time the North coast during events of strong south winds get some hellish temps be it summer or winter.The North coasts can easily see up to 30C or above even in January when strong South winds blow from the Sahara again due to the foehn effect reversed this time.Not to mention the interior of the Messara valley where it has constantly extremely high mean maxes year round (for example the Sivas station of NOA last July had a mean maximum of 38.2C) since it is surrounded by mountains both from the South and North so you kinda have a double foehn effect there practically from any direction the wind blows but the minimums there are much weaker (even chilly for Greece's summer standards) since we dont have the moderating effect of the sea.

All in all the climatology of Crete is pretty amazing.Check it out.You will become addicted if you start studying it.Thank god we now have the more extended coverage from NOA so we can see these amazing differences.

Yes, Crete is also interesting.

What´s the average for January in Sivas?

 

[Mesogiakos]

Have no idea on averages.It's new station.I know it has high maxes but low minimums compared to the coast.This is year round.

 

[J.S.]

The data are ''authentic'' lol.

As I said the Palaiohora station from HNMS which is the official authority of Greece is even warmer.So it's kinda self-defeating from your part dedalus.If you want Palaiohora from HNMS fine by me.It beats the crap out of IP even more

I was just posting this bsc they are easier to collect from the NOA site and it can give you a better idea of how much you can cry over South Crete...and yes obviously 6 years is not enough but still it beats the crap out of your beloved IP for that period

What ever you do Ferreiro Greece will always haunt you in terms of it's heat!Athens in the summer ,Crete in the winter and annualy.Enjoy now and quit whining, I can even hear you from here crying.

Seems like the climate of your contry is some extension of your person. Like you are proud of some weather in some part of the world. I am not amazed at all by any data actually. They are either faulty or a logical function of geography, lattitude and other local and global conditions combined. They are perfectly explainable. So why would one be amazed? That is precisely what people do over here for example to find out what the hottest place in Portugal is: they look for indications that logically would indicate some ideal position for cold/warm etc weather.

To me it makes sense that the average temperatures will be highest in a relatively souterhn lattitude close to a sea that warms up easily. That likely what happens on Grek Islands and somethinglike a føhnwind etc could explain an extra push in temperature. Whatever it is, it is logical that average will be higher in the eastern meditterenean.

For extreme temperatures you need land. The more land, the more extreme cut off by the sea it is the extremer it gets unless there are some dampening factors (like tropical continental areas). That is why daytime maxima in Iberia in lowlying souterhly inland places are higher than anywhere else in Europe and also why minima in teh same places are lower. The amplitude in Portuguese inland station in the south is particularly large it seems. But this may be also true in the Guadalquivir-region outside big cities (but when I checked, the amplitude seems smaller though).

So for people who like extreme amplitudes and constant high daytimemaxima, the Iverian peninsula and the Guadalquivir region especially seems the place to be. For those who are fond of high averages or high minima it may be other parts in the eastern med.

 

[belem]

I do honestly still doubt about where are the highest averages.

 

[Mesogiakos]

That is why daytime maxima in Iberia in lowlying souterhly inland places are higher than anywhere else in Europe and also why minima in teh same places are lower.

Well as always you cant be sure when u deal with Greece.As of recent two areas have really shown their true colors.One of which u might already know if you took basic history in school.Yes it's Sparta.The heroic rival of ancient Athens.The second is the valley of Messara in South Crete and particularly Sivas.Both beat Seville the past two years that they operate (at the same time) in mean maxes during the summer.

Check Sparta out for example

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...ver-in-europe/page__view__findpost__p__826719

The 4 year July mean max for Sparta is 36.3C and for August is 36.2C.You might be right about Guadalquivir but I think Sparta beats any area in Portugal in my opinion.Sparta's 20 year July mean max was 34.5C according to HNMS and that during a decade with very chilly summers in Greece.Sparta should be at least on par or warmer than Seville in terms of summer mean maxes I believe.

 

[Mesogiakos]

I do honestly still doubt about where are the highest averages.

You shouldnt. Annually it's South Crete and with a big difference from all the rest.It's pretty obvious basically.

 

[belem]

Well as always you cant be sure when u deal with Greece.As of recent two areas have really shown their true colors.One of which u might already know if you took basic history in school.Yes it's Sparta.The heroic rival of ancient Athens.The second is the valley of Messara in South Crete and particularly Sivas.Both beat Seville the past two years that they operate (at the same time) in mean maxes during the summer.

Check Sparta out for example

http://www.ukweatherworld.co.uk/for...ver-in-europe/page__view__findpost__p__826719

The 4 year July mean max for Sparta is 36.3C and for August is 36.2C.You might be right about Guadalquivir but I think Sparta beats any area in Portugal in my opinion.Sparta's 20 year July mean max was 34.5C according to HNMS and that during a decade with very chilly summers in Greece.Sparta should be at least on par or warmer than Seville in terms of summer mean maxes I believe.

Don´t forget about Guadiana, East Tagus, East Douro daily maximum in summer (and even average), just to give some examples.


As we already pointed out, it´s very difficult to make conclusions when weather data is so scarce, and when everything points out that we could be wrong.


According to IM estimations, for even older climatological periods, Sparta is not a match. Of course that the most interesting thing it would be comparing data from several weather stations with 30 years of observations (or more).

You shouldnt. Annually it's South Crete and with a big difference from all the rest.It's pretty obvious basically.

I wish it was.

I already did put some questions on this thread, but it were somewhat ignored or simply overlooked...

So where are the observations for Seville, from the last years?

On UK forum, it were surprisingly close to Crete (though below).