Diversidade climática

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Τhe problem is how each might ''translate'' those temperatures.This is problematic since AEMET says that it was certain that those temps in Madrid and Murcia etc took place..so purely from an official standpoint regardless of how we as units translate this the record of 47.8C is OFFICIALLY accepted in Spain by AEMET as you can see in their official database.

If it was not officially accepted then I do not see the reason it would be included in their database.As we have seen the trully dubious records like the 49.8C are not included but the 47.8C does not seem dubious from AEMET officially and thus it is included.

And I quote

Lo que si es cierto es que ese día, 30 de julio de 1876, fue extremadamente caluroso pues en Madrid se midieron 44.2ºC, 47.8ºC en Murcia, 42.5ºC en Bilbao y 41.0ºC en Salamanca.

Simple explanation: even if we measure in the old fashioned way those values are still very high for these cities. It is not like they are 10 C of the mark....May be 3-5. SO yes: they indeed measured bery high temperatures. But the way they were measured discredits them.

Besides: if you look at the records for Badajoz you still see 42,3 C as an average july maxtemp for Badajoz in 1866 on their site. Shall we believe that too, since they say so...

Again: Murcia measures in a garden siurrounded by a 4-10 m high hedge. Not completely like but also no unlike Sevilla San Pablo. And in a Stevenson screen? You have a double whammy: low wind and a Stevenson screen that does one thing in low wind and high insolation: it selfheats...

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

O que é facto é que desde que as medições oficiais e standard from aplicadas, Murcia registou 47,2ºc e não mais que isso.
Para se fazer uma comparação correcta e justa, tem que se comparar valores medidos nas mesmas condições standard e oficiais.

Exactly. And we do not know that Amareleja measured its value with a Gillplate radiationshield and not a selfheating Stevensonscreen. And we in fact have not a single clue how they measure things in Greece, what screens are used etcetc. Nothing.

And if anyone wants to say that 48.0 or 47.8 points to "extreme dynamic conditions" that make a station special and 47,4 (or even 46.6 ot so) does not it is beyond me. It is making an Elephant out of a mosquito, as we say over here.

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

You wrote this "That is why you see Murcia,Catania and Athens being on the top of the list in the highest temps ever recorded in Europe".
That is you rlie by omission, you wrote this just yesterday while you were aware of Bari's 45.6 since april after havin a cheat with the
Italian metoffice.

Four days ago you showed that Sevilla San Pablo, a WMO station, is measuring in a pathetic way when it comes to guidelines.
Yet one day after that on this forum you insist that WMO stations are to be trusted and ALL other are not. That is lying by omission.

Heatisle..It is clear you have gone through a lot of literature. If you would be fair, you would have mentioned both sides of the story.
This research was easily foun by me. When confronted with peerreviewed research, you do not adjust your tone but keep on insisting
there is no heatisle. This was peerreviewed research, unlike the older research you showed us. Yet here you do not listen tot the highest
authority. Again, there are double standards.

I have also shown with various research that various screens introduce different errors, stevensonscreen being prone to the
largest in more modern times regardless of how it is positioned on a field. That is why most metoffices are changing them.
There is one greek station you mention and it indeed uses a stevensonscreen.

So given the very peculiar behaviour of stations only in the Attican basin (not Murcia, not near Sparta nor anywhere else),
we need to know this for sure:
- Is there a heatisle or not
- How is each station you mention positioned at the airfield or any other field for that matter (San Pablo tells us why we need
to know that..)
- Which radiationshields/sensorscreen are used

And this of course opposes what you need in order to get us believing you:
- We must accept, inspite of research showing the opposite, that Athens and the other stations are not affected by heatisles
- We must accept WMO stations on face value, even though we already know that WMO id's guarantee us nothing
- We must accept that there some sort of brutal dynamica AND that this dynamics explains everything in the Attica region
even though I have not seen a single study that proves the high temps in Attica are caused by this phenomenon solely.

It seems clear to me we don't. A tactic in which someone loses credibility because of double standards, single sided stories
and debunking others is not going to help anybody if that person wants to be believed. Quite the opposite.

Well for that reason I rephrased for Catania bsc you try so hard with your arguments to discredit me on single phrases and by going through my posts from other forums.So I am merely saving you time.So spare us my ''lying by ommision'' theory of your internetic fantasies please

What stands is that you have failed in all cases academically to discredit the specific stations in Athens.Actually everyone has!By quoting genaral studies from god know where in Athens i have come back and have shown by virtue that the specific station in question are not influenced in mean temps.I am not talking about generic studies that you can translate as you want

What seems more interesting is that your knowhow on building the best stations in the world somehow infers generalized mistrust in the national authorities.So how about giving us the specifics of the stations that you want to attack?

For example I asked you earlier to give us some pics from Elefsina AP in the sea that has topped every other area in Iberia officially.Can you do this without breaking the law?

The only framework and guarantee is the WMO and not the lusid dreams of wannabe amateurs who know everything and speak by conviction overgeneralizing from specific station examples.As I said in the case WMO stations are doing a bad job it is in us who must try and enforce those standards when and where we see the problem but that has zero connection with your overgeneralizing just bsc it suits your argument.Come on mate you are not taking to 5yo child here

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Simple explanation: even if we measure in the old fashioned way those values are still very high for these cities. It is not like they are 10 C of the mark....May be 3-5. SO yes: they indeed measured bery high temperatures. But the way they were measured discredits them.

Besides: if you look at the records for Badajoz you still see 42,3 C as an average july maxtemp for Badajoz in 1866 on their site. Shall we believe that too, since they say so...

Again: Murcia measures in a garden siurrounded by a 4-10 m high hedge. Not completely like but also no unlike Sevilla San Pablo. And in a Stevenson screen? You have a double whammy: low wind and a Stevenson screen that does one thing in low wind and high insolation: it selfheats...

and how do you know the exact conditions under which the 1994 and 1876 records are taken?

Mate listen if you want to attack a record do it properly and not with jibberish statements all over.I think you will have a pretty hard time with me. Do it academically and by virtue of research in terms of the SPECIFIC station

Can we have your evidence as to the exact measurement procedures of the exact Murcia station on the exact dates please?

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

and how do you know the exact conditions under which the 1994 and 1876 records are taken?

Mate listen if you want to attack a record do it properly and not with jibberish statements all over.I think you will have a pretty hard time with me. Do it academically and by virtue of research in terms of the SPECIFIC station

Can we have your evidence as to the exact measurement procedures of the exact Murcia station on the exact dates please?

I do not need to, I speak in the present tence isn't it?

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Well for that reason I rephrased for Catania bsc you try so hard with your arguments to discredit me on single phrases and by going through my posts from other forums.So I am merely saving you time.So spare us my ''lying by ommision'' theory of your internetic fantasies please

What stands is that you have failed in all cases academically to discredit the specific stations in Athens.Actually everyone has!By quoting genaral studies from god know where in Athens i have come back and have shown by virtue that the specific station in question are not influenced in mean temps.I am not talking about generic studies that you can translate as you want

What seems more interesting is that your knowhow on building the best stations in the world somehow infers generalized mistrust in the national authorities.So how about giving us the specifics of the stations that you want to attack?

For example I asked you earlier to give us some pics from Elefsina AP in the sea that has topped every other area in Iberia officially.Can you do this without breaking the law?

The only framework and guarantee is the WMO and not the lusid dreams of wannabe amateurs who know everything and speak by conviction overgeneralizing from specific station examples.As I said in the case WMO stations are doing a bad job it is in us who must try and enforce those standards when and where we see the problem.

Elefsina? Loads of pics. No problem. None with the station on it. But it has large trees (20-25 m or so) directly near the at least some airstrips.

"As I said in the case WMO stations are doing a bad job it is in us who must try and enforce those standards when and where we see the problem."

How exaclty if you say that this breaking the law. You simply ask the impossible from us. What we can do is measure near Elefsina with calibrated instruments according ot guidelins. As this seems to be an Attican thing and not an Elefsian thing, any place in the Attica basin suffices. Not an easy job.
But that is the way to go. The same way I knew beforehand that San Pablo was not measuring correctly. Your pictured proved I was right and it is the way to go.

But I do not have to do that. I am not on any crucade against anything. I simply do not believe that high averages in Athens and the area surrounding it are simply an artifact of orography. I find peerreviewed work supporting it. It is you who do not accept it and demand something me (and most people on other fora) do not need. So good luck with that.

 

[mesogeiakos]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Elefsina? Loads of pics. No problem. None with the station on it. But it has large trees (20-25 m or so) directly near the at least some airstrips.

"As I said in the case WMO stations are doing a bad job it is in us who must try and enforce those standards when and where we see the problem."

How exaclty if you say that this breaking the law. You simply ask the impossible from us. What we can do is measure near Elefsina with calibrated instruments according ot guidelins. As this seems to be an Attican thing and not an Elefsian thing, any place in the Attica basin suffices. Not an easy job.
But that is the way to go. The same way I knew beforehand that San Pablo was not measuring correctly. Your pictured proved I was right and it is the way to go.

But I do not have to do that. I am not on any crucade against anything. I simply do not believe that high averages in Athens and the area surrounding it are simply an artifact of orography. I find peerreviewed work supporting it. It is you who do not accept it and demand something me (and most people on other fora) do not need. So good luck with that.

Well you find peerreviewed data on the specific stations?Come on mate.One by one I gave you peerreviewed data on the specific stations whereas you translate as it suits you generic studies!Spare us your translations of how it suits you


Btw it seems so suprising that a person who can readily find a bunch of generic UHI studies can not navigate through a forum!

Wake up mate!It was not me who posted the photos of the San Pablo airport.It was the Sevillianos themselves

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Well you find peerreviewed data on the specific stations?Come on mate.One by one I gave you peerreviewed data on the specific stations whereas you translate as it suits you generic studies!Spare us your translations of how it suits you


Btw it seems so suprising that a person who can readily find a bunch of generic UHI studies can not navigate through a forum!

Wake up mate!It was not me who posted the photos of the San Pablo airport.It was the Sevillianos themselves

Yes thats nice thank you.

You wondered about WMO stations not doing a proper job after you had commented on the Sevillian
pics. Moot point who did what when in this case. You knew somehting but portrayed to be oblivious.

You are the one who wants to convince others, like me, that Attica is something special and you meet
the same attitude everywhere. Most of us are not convinced at all. The San Pablo station shows why
a pictur of each station is needed. Heatisle research on Athens is quite clear. It is you who demand that
every individual station needs to be researched. Not me. To me it is not necessary to do so in order to
have strong doubts about data. I am not you, that is clear. You are no standard nor am I.

You find average highs of 40-41 boring, but you like average temperaturs over the whole day a lot. I could say that a climate with little difference between daytime maxima and daytime minima is rather boring. That I think most people are astouned by very continental climats. That is why many people know that Verkoyansk is the continental-climate king but virtually no one knows where to find the martime-climate king...So from that perspective, on daily basis the Guadiana value is much more interesting
than any part of Greece I know of because you get really cool nights much cooler than Greece and on the same day you can experience heath that Greece is unfamiliar with (at the frequency).

These are all personal preferences. No one can say what is better or not. But I do say that continentality in general seems more extreme and therefor interesting to many people and daytime maxima in summer
are also more interesting than any other approach of temperature in that season...Just like minima in winter are sometimes incredible but the maxima rarely so...

 

[Vince]

re: Diversidade climática

Resumen de extremos climatológicos en España

Summary of climate extremes in Spain (Google Translate)

Σύνοψη των ακραίων καιρικών φαινομένων στην Ισπανία (Google Translate)

 

[belem]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

A meu ver, não existem informações suficientes para dizer que as noites no Guadiana são assim tão frescas.
É que a Amareleja já está um bocado distante do Vale do Guadiana.
E junto a Alcoutim, mais perto do Vale do Guadiana, embora numa zona considerada não muito quente comparativamente com as zonas mais quentes do Guadiana, as médias já são altas o que pode sugerir noites mais quentes no contexto regional.
Relativamente às preferências de cada um, sejam a médias ou extremos, penso que é muito relativo.
E penso que determinar qual o local mais quente da Europa ( geográfica, política, insular, continental, às pintas ou aos quadrados, como quiserem), tendo em conta as limitações demonstradas pela qualidade das estações e sua localização ( mesmo algumas sendo consideradas oficiais, são até vergonhosas...), estudos feitos à escala regional ( pois não se sabe se os pontos urbanos e respectivas estações ficam situados exactamente nas zonas mais quentes, pelo menos aqui em Portugal não deve ser de certeza), dados climatológicos, para não citar outros aspectos, neste momento é praticamente impossível.
Apenas se pode pesquisar e trabalhar arduamente de forma séria e sem obsessões especulativas.
Eu para determinar as zonas mais quentes de Portugal continental ( mal seria se fosse de toda a área do país ( território terrestre e marítimo incluídos...) já tenho algumas dificuldades e limitações, imagino o que não será para toda a Europa.
Felizmente não tenho qualquer interesse nisso, mas no dia em que houver condições para determinar qual, certamente teria alguma curiosidade em saber qual, porquê e em que aspectos. Mas não seria eu a fazer o trabalho, apenas teria a curiosidade. lol
Tendo em conta o panorama actual, acho que é completamente impossível dizer qual é a zona mais quente.

 

[J.S.]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Se a Herdade dos Lameirões já consegue valores dessa ordem, imagino nas zonas mais quentes da Bacia e do Vale do Guadiana...
Muito interessantes esses dados.
Obrigado por nos dar a média.

Near Moura it is 100 m lower, but also somewhat less enclosed. Near Ficalho (south of is) in the Chança valley it is about 50 m but somewhat more sheltered (well...) and t the South. I'd say you could add 0,5 to 1 K. So you end up at 38,3 to 38,8 C for this month. I will say that 38,8 C is really the upper limit. If so, this would rival clearly rival Ecija, Puente Genil and Montoro.
In fact, it already is very close to these hotspots.

Seeing the low minima at Herdade dos Lameirões and the high maxima it is very dry and possible somewhat sheltered by nearby trees as well. Pics show us only one side of the the station of course...

 

[belem]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Near Moura it is 100 m lower, but also somewhat less enclosed. Near Ficalho (south of is) in the Chança valley it is about 50 m but somewhat more sheltered (well...) and t the South. I'd say you could add 0,5 to 1 K. So you end up at 38,3 to 38,8 C for this month. I will say that 38,8 C is really the upper limit. If so, this would rival clearly rival Ecija, Puente Genil and Montoro.
In fact, it already is very close to these hotspots.

Seeing the low minima at Herdade dos Lameirões and the high maxima it is very dry and possible somewhat sheltered by nearby trees as well. Pics show us only one side of the the station of course...

Pois só com mais pesquisa e medições é que saberemos que valores fazem nessas regiões.

 

[stormy]

re: Diversidade climática

Acho interessante que, dadas as defecientes instalações da EMA de Sevilla-San Pablo, as diferenças para Sevilla-Moron sejam tão poucas a nivel de temperaturas

 

[Piwe]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Simple explanation: even if we measure in the old fashioned way those values are still very high for these cities. It is not like they are 10 C of the mark....May be 3-5. SO yes: they indeed measured bery high temperatures. But the way they were measured discredits them.

Besides: if you look at the records for Badajoz you still see 42,3 C as an average july maxtemp for Badajoz in 1866 on their site. Shall we believe that too, since they say so...

Again: Murcia measures in a garden siurrounded by a 4-10 m high hedge. Not completely like but also no unlike Sevilla San Pablo. And in a Stevenson screen? You have a double whammy: low wind and a Stevenson screen that does one thing in low wind and high insolation: it selfheats...

Hi!, I live in Murcia and I think I can add some info I think can be useful to the discussion.

The 47,2ºC mark in Murcia was taken in Alfonso X station, which I'm pretty sure is an urban station. It was not measured in the Murcia/Guadalupe station which I think J.S. is taking into account (please correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway, recent studies by the weather center in Murcia show that the maximum temperatures are pretty similar in both the city and the countryside around the city.

On the other hand, night temperatures are like 3 degrees lower in the countryside than in the city, and that's why Murcia/Alcantarilla and Murcia/Guadalupe -which are in the countryside- have 17'8 and 18'4 average annual temperatures. These are lower averages than the ones measured in urban stations such as Murcia/Alfonso X (because of the extra 2-3 degrees at night in the urban stations), which can be easily one degree above these numbers.

Therefore, I don't think that Guadalupe weather station can be compared to Seville/San Pablo, since it is not influenced by the city heat.

Additionally, temps measured in Murcia are corrected afterwards. For instance, the official 42,5ºC measured in Guadalupe a couple of weeks ago is the result of a reduction of almost one degree in the temperature that was actually recorded (which was clearly above 43 degrees many times during the day). In fact, last year (july 23th 2009) we surpassed 47 degrees in Alcantarilla station and Murcia University station, but these temperatures were cut down to an official 45ºC in Alcantarilla (I don't know about Murcia University). Maybe that is done to take into account those factors pointed out by J.S.

I think this can also be added to the discussion because it depends on the crew of the station and their additional info about the dynamics of the area that they do or do not adjust the temperatures to give the official numbers.

To top it all off, if the data of Alfonso X were taken into account, instead of Murcia/Alcantarilla, the average temperature of Murcia would easily rise like 2 degrees with respect to Murcia/Alcantarilla, and suddenly Murcia would have the highest average temperature in Spain. But urban stations (and Alfonso X is an urban station) are not considered as main stations in Spain. On the other hand, I agree that Sevilla/San Pablo is in a weird location (its minimum temperatures are like the ones measured inside the city by aficionados. For example, there have been seldom pretty important frosts in Seville and the station in the airport never went under 0 degrees in most cases, which is very fishy) and therefore it is not fair either to use it as the main station for Seville.

There are too many factors to take into account to reduce everything to "my highest temperature is highest than yours".

 

[belem]

Re: Seguimento Europa 2010

Hi!, I live in Murcia and I think I can add some info I think can be useful to the discussion.

The 47,2ºC mark in Murcia was taken in Alfonso X station, which I'm pretty sure is an urban station. It was not measured in the Murcia/Guadalupe station which I think J.S. is taking into account (please correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway, recent studies by the weather center in Murcia show that the maximum temperatures are pretty similar in both the city and the countryside around the city.

On the other hand, night temperatures are like 3 degrees lower in the countryside than in the city, and that's why Murcia/Alcantarilla and Murcia/Guadalupe -which are in the countryside- have 17'8 and 18'4 average annual temperatures. These are lower averages than the ones measured in urban stations such as Murcia/Alfonso X (because of the extra 2-3 degrees at night in the urban stations), which can be easily one degree above these numbers.

Therefore, I don't think that Guadalupe weather station can be compared to Seville/San Pablo, since it is not influenced by the city heat.

Additionally, temps measured in Murcia are corrected afterwards. For instance, the official 42,5ºC measured in Guadalupe a couple of weeks ago is the result of a reduction of almost one degree in the temperature that was actually recorded (which was clearly above 43 degrees many times during the day). In fact, last year (july 23th 2009) we surpassed 47 degrees in Alcantarilla station and Murcia University station, but these temperatures were cut down to an official 45ºC in Alcantarilla (I don't know about Murcia University). Maybe that is done to take into account those factors pointed out by J.S.

I think this can also be added to the discussion because it depends on the crew of the station and their additional info about the dynamics of the area that they do or do not adjust the temperatures to give the official numbers.

To top it all off, if the data of Alfonso X were taken into account, instead of Murcia/Alcantarilla, the average temperature of Murcia would easily rise like 2 degrees with respect to Murcia/Alcantarilla, and suddenly Murcia would have the highest average temperature in Spain. But urban stations (and Alfonso X is an urban station) are not considered as main stations in Spain. On the other hand, I agree that Sevilla/San Pablo is in a weird location (its minimum temperatures are like the ones measured inside the city by aficionados. For example, there have been seldom pretty important frosts in Seville and the station in the airport never went under 0 degrees in most cases, which is very fishy) and therefore it is not fair either to use it as the main station for Seville.

There are too many factors to take into account to reduce everything to "my highest temperature is highest than yours".

Boa tarde e bem vindo/a

Se tiveres acesso a um desses estudos que afirma que as zonas urbanas e suburbanas em Múrcia têm a mesma temperatura máxima, aproximadamente, seria excelente se o colocasses aqui!

Obrigado.